Theory & Impro transposition - please do justify it (once and for all)

[old git]

Two Questions:-

YC. Is Pavlov the bloke we have to thank for the Ice Cream treat?

Rudjarl. Was it your Longship that came up the Wandle on the 8th August?

Apologies for being serious.

 

[rudjarl]

Rudjarl. Was it your Longship that came up the Wandle on the 8th August?

Nope, that was not me. My longboat does not run on diesel. Only the best and finest for my ship. Pure sweat from tormented rowing slaves.

 

[Young Col]

Yes, that's right, Pavlov. And his wife. Very clever woman. Trained his dogs and found time to do some dancing. Did you know, Bill, that the first MG factory in Abingdon was called Pavlova Works, because of Cecil Kimber's admiration for the dancer (or it may have been the ice cream).
Rudjarl, you must persevere with the sweaty rowers. It's possible to get a long way up the Wandle now. OG had to clear it out for what we call Community Service.
YC

 

[griff136]

Eb, Bb and C.

4 if you include an F mezzo saxophone.

 

[griff136]

Borrowed from wikipedia:

If an instrument has a range that is too high or too low for its music to be easily written on bass or treble clef, the music may be written either an octave higher or an octave lower than it sounds, in order to reduce the use of ledger lines. Instruments that "transpose at the octave" are not playing in a different key from concert pitch instruments, but sound an octave higher or lower than written. Some instruments with extremely high or low ranges use a two-octave transposition.

Music for the contrabassoon and the double bass is written on the bass clef, one octave higher than concert pitch. Music for the guitar and, frequently, the tenor voice is written on the treble clef, one octave higher than concert pitch. Music for the piccolo is written on the treble clef, one octave lower than concert pitch. If these instruments did not transpose at the octave many of their pitches would be written far above or below the staff, making reading comparatively cumbersome

 

[zannad]

Hey guys... we are all here because we Love Music... in most of the cases it involves the Saxophone Eb , Bb , whatever.. & we struggle to achieve what ever goal we Aim for... I know for me this discussion ... no matter how intellectual this argument is ... it is interesting & irrelevant... we have to get on and do what we love.... listen.... Play .... Enjoy what we do..... and most of all......
Transpose ;}

Ade

Good point about the fact that in the end it's all about music (transposed or not) boy, I've done for 3 years and surely didn't stop me enjoying playing my sax...no points about enjoying transposing (but hey, everything goes).
No points also from some blokes up norths who come with very dodgy examples trying to mess up things even further (if there was any need for it) trying to smuggle some skewed reasoning (transposed perhaps?) into logic.
On reasoning alone the argument pro transposition is lost from the word go - just because no one here has come up with a proper explanation for it - except for "it works for us" and "we love it".
I'm excused from knowing the origins and the real functions of transposition since I've left it...at least I'm clean from it and everything in my system is working in synergy (I'm not sure your system does...).
The debate pro fingers v pro ear is 50/50 because while there are advantages on one side there are also disadvantages and vice versa - although we know where we stand and in this case we can talk for hours/days/week without reaching a final conclusion.

goodnight...

 

[zannad]

Borrowed from wikipedia:

If an instrument has a range that is too high or too low for its music to be easily written on bass or treble clef, the music may be written either an octave higher or an octave lower than it sounds, in order to reduce the use of ledger lines. Instruments that "transpose at the octave" are not playing in a different key from concert pitch instruments, but sound an octave higher or lower than written. Some instruments with extremely high or low ranges use a two-octave transposition.

Music for the contrabassoon and the double bass is written on the bass clef, one octave higher than concert pitch. Music for the guitar and, frequently, the tenor voice is written on the treble clef, one octave higher than concert pitch. Music for the piccolo is written on the treble clef, one octave lower than concert pitch. If these instruments did not transpose at the octave many of their pitches would be written far above or below the staff, making reading comparatively cumbersome

I've heard that story about ledger lines...
Transposing by octaves is ok since it doesn't mess up with the name of the notes....a C is still a C or in solfege terms a DO still remains a DO - but the real problem starts when that C is given another symbol e.g. A.
The resulting problems can still be bearable when a player plays only one sax...but what symbol is associated to a specific DO of 261.63Hz (C4) when there are more than one sax? C (melody sax)?, A (alto)? or D (tenor)?
No wonder then that reading music is bad for your ear - that's because it's transposed reading...in that process we are bombarding our brain with confusing and contrasting labels/codes about that specific pitch.

 

[Pete Thomas]

On reasoning alone the argument pro transposition is lost from the word go - just because no one here has come up with a proper explanation for it.

I thought that was done. Ad nauseam. Many times.

 

[kevgermany]

...but the real problem starts when that C is given another symbol e.g. A.
The resulting problems can still be bearable when a player plays only one sax...but what symbol is associated to a specific DO of 261.63Hz (C4) when there are more than one sax? C (melody sax)?, A (alto)? or D (tenor)?

The problem is not the transposition, it's your obsession and refusal to see things from any other viewpoint.

Transposition is effective, works and won't go away, so you may as well accept it. Or move out of music completely.

 

[zannad]

I thought that was done. Ad nauseam. Many times.

nope...and surely fingering wasn't the issue.
Transposition was initially to fit different keyed instruments...trumpet, horns...some didn't even require any fingering...
Also, do you think at that time the music industry was concerned about people playing more than one instrument? Think how PC was society at that time too...
Ledger lines and single key instruments seems the more plausible - then, when technological advancements brought us instruments capable of playing all keys and then musical advancements with the introduction of the Equal Temperament system should have brought transposition to its knees....but it survived (pity).
Later on, it was adopted by sax manufacturers for their own reasons...since clarinets where already there (transposed already) they say "hey...lets' us sell this saxes to clarinet players - let's keep the same or a very similar fingerings so they are easy to sell"...they weren't that concerned about players ears - all they wanted was to find a quick buck.
Ok, that's my interpretation...open to criticism (all the way).

 

[rudjarl]

Dear zannad,
being a bloke from up north I tend to expect the recipient of my messages to have an intellectual capacity above that of a toddler. In that respect I see that I have failed dismally. Be it that you fail to see the simple fact that the same letter have different sounds. I will trespass on your linguistic skills no more. You can not, however, fail to recognize the logic in this statement:
"If the fingering is the same, then the note should have the same name."

PS. Next time fou feel like having a go at me, have balls enough to name me by my name, Rune or nick rudjarl.

 

[zannad]

Dear zannad,
being a bloke from up north I tend to expect the recipient of my messages to have an intellectual capacity above that of a toddler. In that respect I see that I have failed dismally. Be it that you fail to see the simple fact that the same letter have different sounds. I will trespass on your linguistic skills no more. You can not, however, fail to recognize the logic in this statement:
"If the fingering is the same, then the note should have the same name."

PS. Next time fou feel like having a go at me, have balls enough to name me by my name, Rune or nick rudjarl.

I can't use names for my messages - I don't want them to be deleted (wink)
"If the fingering is the same, then the note should have the same name."
Ok...if the fingering is exactly identical but since they don't produce the same sound I beg to say they aren't. To state that the fingering of an Alto is the same as a Tenor is an overstatement - that similarity is an illusionary trap.
Certainly the fingering of an Alto are more similar to another Alto than a Tenor. This means that Alto and Tenor fingering aren't that similar are they?
We can go in circles for hours about this...

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

The problem is not the transposition, it's your obsession and refusal to see things from any other viewpoint.

Transposition is effective, works and won't go away, so you may as well accept it. Or move out of music completely.

Truly.

This whole thread sounds like nothing more than a rant to me. An attempt to belittle anyone who supports transposition by someone who simply isn't good at understanding transposition, and apparently views it as being extremely difficult to understand.

This whole thread has been nothing other than an excursion into someone's very personal problem, IMHO.

No offense intended. I'm just saying how things appear from my perspective.

Transposition is not a problem for me. That's all I can offer.

 

[rudjarl]

Certainly the fingering of an Alto are more similar to another Alto than a Tenor. This means that Alto and Tenor fingering aren't that similar are they?

God heavens, they are more similar than identical twins. Neither are the mouth position any different from a C Harmonica to a D Harmonica, nor from one ram's horn to the other.

The key that follows the description of any given instrument is an indication of the offset to C-natura. From the very beginning it has been like that for one very good reason...

 

[old git]

I think, ooooh how my brain hurts, that it was the imposition of equal temperament and raising of Concert Pitch from 415 to 440 HZ or cps as we used to call it, is the real problem.

Let's think this through. My, mathematically pure C is not the same pitch as Zannad's C. Doesn't that indicate that Zannad is the transposer?

Griff,
Remember that September 19th is "Talk like a Pirate day".

 

[Targa]

Remember that September 19th is "Talk like a Pirate day".

'Pieces of seven, pieces of seven'
Parroty failure.

 

[Nick Wyver]

:welldone Yay! A transposed parrot!

 

[ArtyLady]

I can't believe this thread is still running! 🙂))

 

[teebones]

I can't believe this thread is still running! 🙂))

Snap ArtyLady, it seems to me if you add something on the forum which you think may be of interest to other members little, or if any interest is shown, yet this post seems to have attracted enormous interest.



Teebones another

 

[zannad]

Truly.

This whole thread sounds like nothing more than a rant to me. An attempt to belittle anyone who supports transposition by someone who simply isn't good at understanding transposition, and apparently views it as being extremely difficult to understand.

This whole thread has been nothing other than an excursion into someone's very personal problem, IMHO.

No offense intended. I'm just saying how things appear from my perspective.

Transposition is not a problem for me. That's all I can offer.

"very personal problems?" :shocked:

It's seems history repeating itself...Galileo also was being accused of having some personal problems and even insane by the inquisition - that was when they had no other rational arguments to propose (just like yourself).