Intonation Tips on Baritone octave playing flat

[Woodpad]

Open to alternative suggestions to the Link & meyer.

Syos baritone steady 7

 

[Digger2054]

Dawkes have been great, although FedEx have ruined my plans for the weekend, as I'll have time to actually sit down and experiment.

The delivery driver rang the doorbell, opened the porch, stood in the porch, took a photo of the door from inside the porch, before walking off with parcel 😳

Email from fedex, to say it was missed, but I can re-arrange it... using the number on the card in the porch at home.

The annoying thing is, I tried to add a 'safe place' (the massive porch on the front of the house) when I got notification of shippment "You can't do that - We need a signature"

Umpteen emails from FedEx... "If no one is going to be available to sign for this shipment, you can sign for it in advance and we can deliver it as scheduled."

I've asked for it to be delivered to a local shop... but it doesn't tell me when I can expect it to arrive there.

Starting to wish I'd just used the Royal Mail option

 

[Colin the Bear]

There are serious delays and problems with Royal Mail at the moment. Items are taking weeks to arrive. They notified me that one item was delivered. No sign of it. When I checked tracking, they had returned to sender. I'm opting for pick up, for the foreseeable future.

 

[Digger2054]

There are serious delays and problems with Royal Mail at the moment. Items are taking weeks to arrive. They notified me that one item was delivered. No sign of it. When I checked tracking, they had returned to sender. I'm opting for pick up, for the foreseeable future.

That was part of my reasoning for the courier option

Perhaps it's a sign that I shouldn't be playing the Bari

 

[Digger2054]

Finally I have my parcel from Dawkes, so I skipped out of work early to collect it and have been "working" from home this afternoon.

Two recordings of the same piece, on the original Berg, and a Link... any guesses which is which?

Bari Sax Mouthpiece Tests – Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[Dr G]

Finally I have my parcel from Dawkes, so I skipped out of work early to collect it and have been "working" from home this afternoon.

Two recordings of the same piece, on the original Berg, and a Link... any guesses which is which?

Bari Sax Mouthpiece Tests – Google Drive

drive.google.com

Nope, nothing I hear to tell me that the ‘piece is making a difference. The scooping and clipping are overwhelming your sound. Play something deliberately with intervals and longer tones that challenge you and the mouthpiece throughout the range of the horn.

Unless, of course, that’s what you want it to sound like, then it sounds great.

 

[Digger2054]

Nope, nothing I hear to tell me that the ‘piece is making a difference. The scooping and clipping are overwhelming your sound. Play something deliberately with intervals and longer tones that challenge you and the mouthpiece throughout the range of the horn.

Unless, of course, that’s what you want it to sound like, then it sounds great.

I've stuck two files in the folder, just Cmajor in 3rds, from low C up to high, and back down.

With the mic gain turned down. No tuner, so should be quite straight out the horn.

 

[lydian]

Finally I have my parcel from Dawkes, so I skipped out of work early to collect it and have been "working" from home this afternoon.

Two recordings of the same piece, on the original Berg, and a Link... any guesses which is which?

Bari Sax Mouthpiece Tests – Google Drive

drive.google.com

Both go flat on the high end. But piece 2 sounds brighter and flatter on the high end to me. I'm guessing that one has a smaller chamber and higher baffle. If you're trying to evaluate intonation, you need to play us the whole range. But I'm also hearing technique issues that could be corrected by pushing in and voicing lower. That could even out the scale.

EDIT: Just heard your updated recordings. All confirm both pieces have issues, the second one more severe than the first. I think pushing in is worth a try. But ultimately, you need bigger chambered pieces.

I'm also hearing a reed that sounds too soft. That can also contribute to poor intonation. Going up a half strength is also worth a try.

My guess is Link is 1 and Berg is 2. My question is why you haven't tried a large chambered piece.

 

[turf3]

Both go flat on the high end. But piece 2 sounds brighter and flatter on the high end to me. I'm guessing that one has a smaller chamber and higher baffle. If you're trying to evaluate intonation, you need to play us the whole range. But I'm also hearing technique issues that could be corrected by pushing in and voicing lower. That could even out the scale.

EDIT: Just heard your updated recordings. All confirm both pieces have issues, the second one more severe than the first. I think pushing in is worth a try. But ultimately, you need bigger chambered pieces.

I'm also hearing a reed that sounds too soft. That can also contribute to poor intonation. Going up a half strength is also worth a try.

My guess is Link is 1 and Berg is 2. My question is why you haven't tried a large chambered piece.

What I heard is not enough air, resulting in a buzzy sound with insufficient core.

I think a Link is PLENTY big enough of a chamber. I don't think the mouthpieces "have issues", I think the issues are airstream and support.

You need to push in, blow more air, and play lower on the input pitch. That'll make the short tube notes relatively sharper (a greater percentage change in length for a given change in mouthpiece position).

When in doubt, add air.

 

[Digger2054]

Piece is on with about 15mm or cork.

You're probably right on the air, I don't shove huge amounts of air through my horns, and support can waiver.

The link is easier to play soft & gentle, doesn't seem fussy with what reed I put on it.

I resorted to playing Legere on the berg, as cane reeds were hit and miss.

I'll try more air... I'm sure the neighbours won't mind 😂

 

[Colin the Bear]

How much cork is showing is irrelevant. If the cork was shorter, there'd be less showing.

Grease it well and slowly twist further on.

PS. You may have a leak.

 

[lydian]

What I heard is not enough air, resulting in a buzzy sound with insufficient core.

I think a Link is PLENTY big enough of a chamber. I don't think the mouthpieces "have issues", I think the issues are airstream and support.

You need to push in, blow more air, and play lower on the input pitch. That'll make the short tube notes relatively sharper (a greater percentage change in length for a given change in mouthpiece position).

When in doubt, add air.

If the mouthpieces have no issues, how do you explain the intonation difference with exactly the same input (air and support) on both? They should be equally flat if chamber doesn't Mayer. It's clear to me the Berg may never play in tune no matter how good the support is. Better to focus efforts on the Link IMO.

My bari player in my quartet plays a hard rubber Link on a similar vintage Buescher, and his intonation is perfect. He is a strong player who uses a lot of air.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Just blow the bloody thing.😎

Oh! and get an S80. 😉

 

[turf3]

If the mouthpieces have no issues, how do you explain the intonation difference with exactly the same input (air and support) on both? They should be equally flat if chamber doesn't Mayer. It's clear to me the Berg may never play in tune no matter how good the support is. Better to focus efforts on the Link IMO.

My bari player in my quartet plays a hard rubber Link on a similar vintage Buescher, and his intonation is perfect. He is a strong player who uses a lot of air.

I'm sorry, I didn't write my response well.

Here's my opinion:

A berg is probably too small a chamber for a 1930s baritone that was probably designed in 1915 or so. In my opinion, a Link is probably a good chamber size match for this kind of horn (just for reference, I play a Meyer (similar design, but actually a bit smaller effective chamber) on a Conn (also designed, I believe around 1915) and get excellent intonation). While a Link isn't what we might call a "LARGE chamber" (chamber diameter is roughly the same as the cork bore), it's certainly a large chamber by comparison with a Berg.

I would expect that if OP were to get middle G (second line) in tune with both mouthpieces and then measure from the tip of the MP to a convenient registration point, he would find that the Link has a shorter effective sounding distance. This will already improve intonation. But beyond that, once you put a decent size chamber mouthpiece on that old horn, and you start doing some serious airstream work, you're going to find that you want to play progressively looser, progressively more open voicing, and that'll make you play progressively flatter, and you'll push further in, and intonation will continue to improve.

OK, I'm feeling a bit longwinded, so here's my tale.

I've got an old Conn baritone. When I bought it, in the box came a Vandoren mouthpiece with a "small round" chamber. It sounded great, but I had to pull it way way out all the time, and it was still trying to play sharp. I extended the shank 3/4" or so to get it to mechanically work on the horn. But, high notes were flat (so, palm keys raised to the moon), bell notes sharp (especially low Bb), and there were weird tuning anomalies as well (middle E and F darn near a quarter tone sharp, for example).

At some point, after playing this setup for about 20 years, I went on a mouthpiece hunt, found that the Meyer mouthpiece sounds like I want it to sound, and tuned much better. When I adopted the Meyer, the sounding length (measured from the tip of the MP; the amount of cork showing just reflects how long the cork and mouthpiece shank are, no acoustical meaning whatsoever) was about an inch shorter than the Vandoren, to achieve a reasonable in tune position. Now, just to start, reflect on that. An INCH difference in total length! When we tune up we might move the mouthpiece 3/16" or so. It's clear that putting that largER chamber MP (not a "large chamber" that's bigger than the cork bore, just a chamber that's the same size, without constrictions in the window area!) made a HUGE difference to the scale of the instrument, especially up high where any change in length has a bigger percentage effect on the length of the tube.

So when I did this - overall intonation got WAY better - high notes came up, low notes went down - but also the weird tuning anomalies disappeared, altissimo became easily accessible; and a tendency to squeak in palm key notes when pushing hard, totally disappeared.

Now the interesting thing is that over the 20 years since I made this change, my embouchure and voicing, responding to a properly matched sax/MP combination, have continued to get flatter, and I push on a bit further every year. I'd say (without actually measuring) that the sounding length I'm playing this horn with now is at LEAST 1.5" shorter than it was back in 2005 when I had been playing that Vandoren for 20 years.

So, OP, I prescribe a course of long tones and interval studies with that there Otto Link, which I predict will make your bari playing easier, more rewarding, better in tune, and develop a core of rich chocolatey goodness in your tone instead of that buzzy raspy sound that might seem like it projects well but doesn't, not really.

 

[Digger2054]

I would expect that if OP were to get middle G (second line) in tune with both mouthpieces and then measure from the tip of the MP to a convenient registration point, he would find that the Link has a shorter effective sounding distance.

I've tried this:

Link 143mm
Berg 159mm

It's only day 1 but what was immediately noticable:

The link plays easier than the berg, isn't as reed fussy. I resorted to using Legere on the link, a cane that didn't work on that, plays fine on the link.
Working the berg intonation issues it always felt excessive, the link seems more adaptable & manageable.

Just blow the bloody thing.😎

The wife's home, so that puts an end to today testing.

 

[turf3]

So right off the bat you can see a 16 mm difference (almost 3/4") in sounding length, and you haven't even settled in to blowing the Link yet!

I think it's clear.

My recommendation would be to stop there, and put at least six months practice into the Link mouthpiece - long tones from pppp to ffff and back to pppp, over the FULL range of the horn, outdoors away from reflecting surfaces whenever possible; interval studies over the FULL RANGE of the horn, etc.

 

[Digger2054]

My recommendation would be to stop there, and put at least six months practice into the Link mouthpiece - long tones from pppp to ffff and back to pppp, over the FULL range of the horn, outdoors away from reflecting surfaces whenever possible; interval studies over the FULL RANGE of the horn.

That as well as all the other stuff on my tenor 😂

I prefer playing my tenor, but once people learn you have a Bari somehow you end up carting it around with you. I don't mind playing it in the orchestra, it can be fun.

I'll make more effort not to neglect the Bari practice, we've a few weeks without orchestra practice so may as well make the most of it.

 

[Dr G]

That as well as all the other stuff on my tenor 😂

I prefer playing my tenor, but once people learn you have a Bari somehow you end up carting it around with you. I don't mind playing it in the orchestra, it can be fun.

I'll make more effort not to neglect the Bari practice, we've a few weeks without orchestra practice so may as well make the most of it.

Both your horns will benefit from better air support.

 

[Hankenstine]

Here's an original vintage Buescher baritone mouthpiece in good condition for a reasonable price. With a hard reed it should produce a warm and mellow tone which would be more suitable for an orchestra. It might be worth consideration?

Photo Advert

Musical Instrument Photo Adverts with Musical Instrument Sales.

www.musicalinstrumentsales.co.uk

 

[PigSquealer]

Here's an original vintage Buescher baritone mouthpiece in good condition for a reasonable price. With a hard reed it should produce a warm and mellow tone which would be more suitable for an orchestra. It might be worth consideration?

Photo Advert

Musical Instrument Photo Adverts with Musical Instrument Sales.

www.musicalinstrumentsales.co.uk

Lucky find and reasonably priced too. The advert doesn’t note what tip size ? From new they were available in several tips.
I agree it’s worth considering an original factory one.

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Intonation - Tips on Baritone octave playing flat