Theory & Impro This is exactly how dissonant each interval is

[Pete Effamy]

Chuck one up ... You don't need physics to explain that.

Simple one:

Play a B next to middle C together. A semitone. Dissonance.

Place a G below them and an E above them. Still dissonant?

 

[mizmar]

Simple one:

Play a B next to middle C together. A semitone. Dissonance.

Place a G below them and an E above them. Still dissonant?

He looks at many more,. exotic, examples.
Worth a watch.

 

[Pete Effamy]

He looks at many more,. exotic, examples.
Worth a watch.

But if you agree that this basic one changes its spots, then….

 

[mizmar]

But if you agree that this basic one changes its spots, then….

Then what?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Then what?

..you don’t need more elaborate examples.

 

[mizmar]

..you don’t need more elaborate examples.

You assume that your example isn't covered by the analysis you haven't watched the video, let alone followed the references...

The analysis presented only covers 3 note combinations because, well, visualisation!

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove....

 

[Pete Effamy]

You assume that your example isn't covered by the analysis you haven't watched the video, let alone followed the references...

The analysis presented only covers 3 note combinations because, well, visualisation!

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove....

That it’s objective, and even then it can change.

 

[mizmar]

That it’s objective, and even then it can change.

Yes. And?

 

[mizmar]

And?

And, last time I posted some fun, little bit of science; folks had apoplexy...

And?
Never again.

 

[Dr G]

No need to stomp your feet and make a grand scene. What’s the point of starting a conversation if you choose to abandon it rather than defend it?

 

[mizmar]

I didn't abandon anything.
I said I would stop posting such material in the future. Not too complicated, eh?

 

[JSL]

What’s the thing about dissonance anyway? For some people, a major 7 chord is horribly dissonant and unpleasant. For others it’s melancholic or beautiful. Probably depends even more on how it’s voiced too, or arranged in an ensemble or full orchestra, and what harmonies precede or follow.

What I’d like to see are musical examples. Music can be a magic trick - you can play a semitone dissonance on its own, then bury it in a chord voicing. Has dissonance disappeared?

I spent a fair amount of time reading through this thread. Right from the very start, I had the same thoughts expressed in the two quotes above. Then I came upon this:

Play a B next to middle C together. A semitone. Dissonance.

Place a G below them and an E above them. Still dissonant?

Exactly!! As soon as you place a dissonant interval into a chord, the dissonance can disappear. In the example above, once you place the notes B & C into a major chord, the sound is beautiful. Same thing if you place the G below and an Eb above, where you'll get a C min/maj chord. A very beautiful & exotic sound. There are many more such examples.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Exactly.

“When is dissonance not dissonance “

- and all that type of stuff.

It misses the point that before Bach the dominant 7th chord was considered so dissonant it was labelled the Devil’s chord and wasn’t used. This could have had something to do with tuning (before tempered) but folk back then obviously didn’t much like the tritone or the tone clash of the root / 7th. Well, too saucy for Monks and the like.

Taste / point of view etc evolves along with everything else. Gradually, people push buttons. A bit of dissonance then immediate consonance. Sour, then sweet. Exciting ? Not too bad after all ? Sky didn’t fall in ?

Try some more.

Try some chords that hang and don’t resolve. Things become normalised.

Dissonance is often talked about as something that needs to disappear again once it has made an appearance. It has come to be a word associated with ugly sounds. We also associate the word tension, a word coupled to things like headaches. Dissonance is colour, spice, flavour, car chases, fight scenes, wonder, music.

Music. It’s part of music.

 

[mizmar]

Exactly!

And the material in the video I posted tackles this better than simplistic, "simple ratio", Pythagorean stuff often trotted out. And touches on how it works for non tube/string instruments and in other traditions.

Indeed the YouTube links to a links to a whole book "Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale" free to download, to explore... For those who are curious to learn more. ..

 

[Tenor Viol]

The video came up in my YT feed and I thought it was useful.

The whole challenge around this space is that it is mostly based on an ancient Greek philosopher's view that everything should fit simple geometric ratios/patterns. There is no scientific basis to that. The base problem is that the system is predicated on the assumption that it's true.

A large part of what 'is' dissonant is dependent on a mix of cultural/societal norms and it changes over time. In the C13th the 4th was regarded as dissonant. Until the late baroque era, 'dissonances' such as 7ths and 2nds had to be 'prepared' and 'resolved'. In the C20th people shoved a random tone cluster in and called it 'colourful'.

Real world of music making (Western tradition anyway) doesn't really fit that very well. The simple ratios, such as 1:1; 3:2; 5:4, do tend to be more 'consonant'.

What we end up with is a compromised tuning method (equal temperament) that is practical and works reasonably well most of the time, but it has flaws. Keys no longer have 'character' as they're all the same in ET, and the major third in ET is really quite dissonant.

The alternative tunings/temperaments - and there are many, not just 'just intonation', Werckmeister III, or quarter coma mean tone etc. - are very good in some keys and hideous in others. For most people ET works most of the time. Early music specialists often use other temperaments as the tunings are 'sweeter' (less sour thirds) but the music tends to be written in 'simple' keys - you don't see Eb minor or C# major...

 

[Pete Effamy]

Indeed the YouTube links to a links to a whole book "Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale" free to download, to explore... For those who are curious to learn more. ..

About orchestration / functional harmony / composition ?

 

[mizmar]

About orchestration / functional harmony / composition ?

obviously not (nor about cooking ossobuco or crocheting) although some of the ideas and techniques discussed could be a contribution.

 

[Pete Thomas]

obviously not (nor about cooking ossobuco or crocheting) although some of the ideas and techniques discussed could be a contribution.

Good point, I think acoustics was something I wish I had learned more about, I think many musicians don't even know about just intonation

 

[Pete Thomas]

It misses the point that before Bach the dominant 7th chord was considered so dissonant it was labelled the Devil’s chord and wasn’t used.

Ahem, Mr Pedantic just tapped me on the shoulder. Monterverdi used a (unprepared) G7 in Cruda Amarilli (1605) bar 13 4th beat.

The idea of the Devil's chord was an invention of the twentieth century, back in the early days there was a devil's interval, but even then it could happen by chance as polyphony

 

[mizmar]

The idea of the Devil's chord was an invention of the twentieth century

I acknowledge that a video with Adam Neely in it can be as upsetting as one containing a sin wave; but, yes

View: https://youtu.be/3MhwGnq4N9o