Theory & Impro This is exactly how dissonant each interval is

So let's see if I understand your formula correctly. From the video you linked to, it shows that a consonance has a smaller number of cycles before the waves again come together, and a dissonance has a larger number of cycles before the waves coincide. Is this on the right track?
That's not quite good enough, you have to allow some margin as only whole-number frequency ratios will ever coincide perfectly. Any even-tempered interval apart from an octave would take for ever. Also, approximate unisons by that measure would be regarded as more and more dissonant as they approach true unison and the beats get slower. But that isn't how we hear it, which is part of what I meant about subjectivity. Different people will hear these things differently.
 
So let's see if I understand your formula correctly. From the video you linked to, it shows that a consonance has a smaller number of cycles before the waves again come together, and a dissonance has a larger number of cycles before the waves coincide. Is this on the right track?

I have known for a long time that a pure tone without harmonics like a tuning fork produces a sine wave, but this short video shows the formula used to graph a sine wave based upon the frequency of a note.

I think you are getting it perfectly.


Any even-tempered interval apart from an octave would take for ever. Also, approximate unisons by that measure would be regarded as more and more dissonant as they approach true unison and the beats get slower. But that isn't how we hear it, which is part of what I meant about subjectivity. Different people will hear these things differently.

Indeed, at somewhere the beat will be so slow that we don't think of it as a dissonance, but a pulsing intensity in volume that can make harmonies sound a little poor. Luckily our ears aren't infinitely sensitive, so the tune can come so close to unison that we doesn't realize it.
 
That's not quite good enough, you have to allow some margin as only whole-number frequency ratios will ever coincide perfectly. Any even-tempered interval apart from an octave would take for ever. Also, approximate unisons by that measure would be regarded as more and more dissonant as they approach true unison and the beats get slower. But that isn't how we hear it, which is part of what I meant about subjectivity. Different people will hear these things differently.
Your point is well taken. However a "just interval" of a 5th from A=440 to E is 3/2 or 1.5 which produces E=660. In "equal temperament" the ratio is 1.498307 which produces a frequency of E=659.26. To the listener this "consonance" would produce slightly less than 1 "beat" per second. See if you can hear the difference.



 
To the listener this "consonance" would produce slightly less than 1 "beat" per second. See if you can hear the difference.
I can if I listen very carefully, there's a slow variation in the volume. But it doesn't sound dissonant. That's partly why counting exact matches between the waveforms doesn't seem right to me. I suppose one could argue that the dissonance comes in at the point where the beat frequency starts to be heard as a pitch rather than a rhythm. Around 20 Hz but no doubt will vary from listener to listener.
 
Although I have only been playing and learning to read music for 15 months I was surprised how quickly I realised that I do not understand a single word of any of these formulae or theories! I would go and practise now but I my head is hurting!
Do what I do keep reading in the hope you will somehow absorb it all and one day it will all make sense 🙂

Jx
 
Not sure i will live long enough for this to be absorbed into the sludgy thing that masquerades as my brain!

Don't despair. I'm a pretty dumb person, and it only took me about 13-15 years to gather the understanding, and I've spent a lot of time on other things in that period. So If you are an average person, I guess it will not take you more than a couple of years to gather understanding 🙂
 
Don't despair. I'm a pretty dumb person, and it only took me about 13-15 years to gather the understanding, and I've spent a lot of time on other things in that period. So If you are an average person, I guess it will not take you more than a couple of years to gather understanding 🙂
Ah I see 13 to 15 years! Piece of cake then, what was I stressing about!
 
There is a long history of attempting to quantify consonance and dissonance. Of note are Herman Helmholz in "On the sensation of tone" and Harry Partch in The Genesis of a new music" with his "one footed bride" diagram.

I think William Sethares' work is the most advanced in this area. See his book ‘Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale’.
 
There is a long history of attempting to quantify consonance and dissonance. Of note are Herman Helmholz in "On the sensation of tone" and Harry Partch in The Genesis of a new music" with his "one footed bride" diagram.

I think William Sethares' work is the most advanced in this area. See his book ‘Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale’.
Thank you for these resources. It is always great to get new sources of information on those topics one is interested in.
 
This is a very interesting idea Kim, and I'm impressed with the amount of thought you've put into it.

I think you need to take a better look at other tuning systems, such as Just Intonation. Just Intonation is a good place to start because it has a fairly simple basis. There isn't just one version of it, but the idea behind it is that the interval between any two adjacent semitones is always the ratio of two fairly small integers.

You could say "Okay, a fifth is a step of seven semitones, and 3/2 it's very close to 7 x the twelfth root of 2, so I'll just assume it's close enough to be the same". The point is, it isn't the same.

I still struggle to wrap my head around the reasons for it, but it does work very well. A simple melody played in Just Intonation is subjectively more pleasant and emotionally satisfying than the same tune played in Equal Temperament. Yes, that is subjective, but it's also something that can be measured and quantified.

I'm sure Colin (The Bear) is right in that you can clearly see the difference between intervals in Equal Temperament and ones in others (lets just stick with Just Intonation, to keep it simple). Why would that be? The usual reason that's given is that it's about harmonics. The extra dissonance, and visible jaggedness, in Equal Temperament is simply because there is more harmonic content from combining the two waveforms.

I'm now struggling to remember how you calculate that combined waveform 🙂 I expect you could do a much better job.

If you were observing a waveform, but didn't have a way of calculating it, because you didn't know how it came about (in this case, the tuning system used to make an interval), one way to look at it would be as a Fourier Transform, or look at the observed waveform and break it down using Fourier Analysis. The extra jaggedness Colin mentioned would be quantifiable as extra terms representing the higher frequency harmonics.

So, one observation is that your paper applies only to Equal Temperament, and not to any other temperament. Saying that the frequencies of the notes happen to be quite similar, so it applies well enough to both, does not work. I'm not trying to be critical, but that is what your paper is discussing - and it's interesting - and I still don't fully understand it 🙂 - but it doesn't apply to any other tuning system, so I personally think you should clarify that.

I'm also not sure about the assumption that the same dissonance applies, regardless of the frequencies of the notes involved. It's fine to say you're making a mathematical argument based on that assumption, but unless there's some way you can prove it, your hypothesis is based on that, so it's kind of on shaky ground.

The reason I think it might not be a safe assumption is that we have a limited range of pitches we can perceive. As we get older, the range gets smaller too. If I took the jagged looking dissonant interval that was shown on the scope, I might be hearing a lot of that jaggedness - or less of it, depending on where my ears cut off the upper harmonics. My left ear has very little treble response any more, so that would be the less critical ear, and probably hears less dissonance.

If I then raised the whole thing up a couple of octaves, squashing all the peaks together on the oscilloscope, I'd still be able to see the jaggedness, but those harmonics might well be out of my range of hearing, so I probably wouldn't hear as much dissonance, if any.

Mathematics definitely can be applied to music, and the way we perceive music - which is really all there is; if we didn't perceive sounds as music, they would still be sounds, but they wouldn't be music. I find it interesting that we can examine some of it in terms of mathematics.

A lot of people have the idea that they can't do maths, but can do music - or the other way around. Personally, I think we all have the capacity to do both, and they're both a fundamental part of what makes us human. Unfortunately, the way they are taught in schools can put people off one or both of them for life.
 
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Sorry, I left out a chunk of why tuning systems like Just Intonation work. It's to do with the fact that each note on an instrument is not just a sine wave on one set frequency, it contains the odd and even harmonics, at different amplitudes. Those are integer multiples of the fundamental frequency of the note. Dissonance is partly to do with beats between those harmonics, as well as the note.

For example, lets say we have two instruments playing an interval of exactly a perfect fifth - 3/2. As well as the note, each is also playing the octave above it (2xf), and the perfect fifth above that (3xf).. and so on.

Since one note is 3/2 x the frequency of the other, we get this:

Instrument 1:
f, 2f, 3f - first harmonic, second harmonic, third harmonic - and so on, but lets just stick to those three.

playing with:

Instrument 2:
3f/2, 2x(3f/2), 3x(3f/2)

Just looking at the third harmonic from the first instrumet, and the second harmonic from the second instrument, they're the same.

3f = 2x(3f/2)

so those harmonics are playing in unison. Ensemble players would adjust the note they're playing to match each other to make that happen, as close as possible.

Now, instead of having a perfect fifth (3/2), lets just make it 7 semitones on a synthesizer, tuned to Equal Temperament (ET). ET works by dividing an octave into 12 equal steps - as ratios, or logarithmically, if you like - so each semitone is the twelfth root of 2 times the previous one. The twelfth root of two means a number that when raised to the power 12, gives you two.

That's a number with a never ending series of digits after the decimal point, that never repeats itself - an irrational number. It's roughly 1.059463, and 7 of those multiplied together, to make the fifth, is about 1.4983. It might not seem much different, but it's an important difference.

So, try the above again using this new ratio, instead of 3/2:

Instrument 1 plays this harmonic series:
f, 2f, 3f ...
Instrument 2 plays this:
1.4983 x f, 2x 1.4983 x f, 3x 1.4983 x f ...
or
1.4983 x f, 2.9966 x f, 4.49492 x f ...

So, the third harmonic of the first instruments note (3f) isn't in tune with the second harmonic of the second instruments note any more (2.9966 x f) - they beat.

The same applies to other harmonics from the two instruments - or two oscillators in a synth. When the two notes are an integer ratio apart, some of them cancel each other out in a way, by playing in unison. In Equal Temperament, that doesn't happen, and different harmonics of the two notes beat, making that jagged waveform.

In other words, Equal Temperament has dissonance built in, for any interval. Some more than others. Just Intonation (among others) allows harmony without so much of that interference between harmonics.

The only good reason I've heard of for sticking with Equal Temperament is changing key during a song. It would get a bit messy trying to change between keys in Just Intonation.
 
The trouble with non-equal temperaments is that as you go over more octaves the frequencies no longer coincide, but become very ugly. Equal temperament sacrifices the exact ratios within an octave for a consistent set of relatively small inaccuracies. There's no easy answer because the frequency ratios don't scale.

BTW not all instruments have the odd and even harmonics, the clarinet is a good example.
 
BTW not all instruments have the odd and even harmonics, the clarinet is a good example.
Agreed - or they do, but at vanishingly small amplitudes. That was just the easiest example to give, because it's fairly simple to explain using the second and third harmonics. I can come up with a clarinet version, but the idea is the same - just involving higher harmonics.

Yes, tuning schemes like that are best suited to playing in a relatively narrow range. There are quite a lot of tunes where an instrument would only have to play just over an octave, or an octave and a half, maybe, and it works fine for that.

I once read that probably the most common instrument in the world is the Hulusi - Chinese free reed end blown keyless flute, with a gourd to blow into. Those have a range of one octave plus one whole tone. I've noticed certain styles of music mostly stick to quite a small range for the main melody, and it works. Presumably, there's a lot of Chinese hulusi music. I've only ever heard a couple of examples.
 
This is an answer to #35 & # 36.


I don't deny that the tuning system makes a difference, but I don't think its overall influence is as important.

It's true that it only applies to equal temperament, but it still gives an overall picture. A minor second is very dissonant in both just and equal temperament, and a perfect fifth is very consonant in both temperaments. I also think that it is more relevant to use equal temperament as a starting point because it's the most commonly used.


Fourier series are (often infinite) sums of sinusoid waves. I've found the waveform of the harmony simply by adding the two waves, which the harmony consists of together. Therefore, it is already a Fourier series. I can't see why I should break it down with a Fourier analysis because we already know which sinusoid waves of which frequencies it is made of.

I will rewrite the papers taking this in account.

I've actually founded two problems that may be important to consider. They are only regarding the diminished fifth, but they can be the one case that refutes the hypothesis. You can read about it when I’ve rewritten the papers.


The assumption is just a question about the definition of the word "dissonance". It isn't just an assumption I've come up with, it is how we in general defines the word. My dictionary says that a dissonance is a: "musical interval or harmony that sounds unpleasant in a given context".

According to this, I can't see how the assumption should be improper. However, I can understand if you want to question the second part of the definition. To that I'll say, the harmonies here is analyzed from no context. You can consider no context as a context, where nothing is nothing but the harmony is, and nothing enters the context.
 

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