Teaching Teaching "standards" (moved from first ten standards thread)

[mizmar]

BEGINNER

No need to shout. I can show you plenty of BEGINNER learning material based on the American Song Book leading to insights into jazz styles. I'm a beginner / intermediate and use that material for that reason. FWIW i also use classical, klezmer and maqam material of the same nature in the same way. I don't much listen to Umm Kulthum but i can play some of her stuff ... just part of the Great Egyptian song book.

Further, there's a great ambiguity in the word "beginner" as much material is "beginner jazz" but "assumes competent musician". Fabrizios stuff is OBVIOUSLY directed at pretty competent, self sufficient, musicians.

I think, as a less than competent musician going through this stuff I can see the cogs and wheels close up and can think about it very clearly.

 

[David Dorning]

All that is being proposed is that those teaching should be be working with an open mind and not be continually forcing students into genres and practice routines that fail to embrace the present and the opportunities that they could have. Is that really too difficult to understand?

I understand the point you are making Wade, but I have to say that of the (admittedly) relatively few sax teachers I have had over the last few years, each in my opinion has had an open mind, none has tried to force me to play any particular genre, each has been well rooted in the present, actively involved in a range of styes of musical performance and open to any genre I have wanted to pursue. Ok, I’m in my 60s so not as likely to be persuadable as a young player, but really I don’t think any of them fits the stereotype described above. Am I an exception?

 

[Wade Cornell]

I understand the point you are making Wade, but I have to say that of the (admittedly) relatively few sax teachers I have had over the last few years, each in my opinion has had an open mind, none has tried to force me to play any particular genre, each has been well rooted in the present, actively involved in a range of styes of musical performance and open to any genre I have wanted to pursue. Ok, I’m in my 60s so not as likely to be persuadable as a young player, but really I don’t think any of them fits the stereotype described above. Am I an exception?

It's very possible that there are a lot of very good teachers out there who can foster creativity and expose their clients to a wider range of music. I'm presuming that your experience in taking those lessons was as an adult. What we do and choose as adults is up to us. My rants are primarily about basic teaching, what happens in schools and Universities. A quick look at the programs for those universities and music schools shows that most only have performance programs for Classical and Jazz. When one looks at this site or SOTW you find that the vast majority of discussions, tracks played, etc. are "standards". It's mostly locked into the past and not looking forward.

Adults making the choice to play "standards" is fine and hopefully they a enjoying themselves. However I think it's a disservice to a beginner to channel them into a style that has little/no future if they have the potential to become a professional. There's work available for players in other genres. How much call is there for jazz bands playing standards? How many players are there available for those gigs? Which type of player is more likely to have their ear on the pulse of where music is gong and be part of a new genera? The 1950s players who initiated playing standards were all "contemporary" musicians. They weren't playing Trad Jazz. They moved from big bands/swing into a new genera. Other moves in jazz continued in the 60s and 70s, but (unfortunately) snapped back into the 1950s as academic teaching started prescribing a 1950s formulated approach to playing jazz. We're still stuck there.

Independent teachers who teach an open syllabus are to be encouraged and applauded. I'm mostly familiar with teachers who went through the system, came out the other side with their degree and found no work. They became teachers of the same system that failed them.

I'd love to see a listing of those independent teachers who aren't stuck in the 1950s as a reference for adult beginners as well as youngsters. We need a lot more of them to make a difference and balance what is clearly out of balance.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Stuck in the 50's.
A valve radio in the corner. No television. No telephone. No fridge. Dance bands down the local Palais. Salvation Army the only live music I'd heard apart from the Church organ. Everything but the church shut on Sundays. So you might as well go. Short pants. Coal fires. Meat still on ration. Full employment but poor wages. Bomb sites here and there. Hand me down clothes. Few cars. Trams and a horse drawn milk man. Polio, Rickets and Scabies. 5/- a week for the doctor who turned up on a vespa with a bag full of pills. Non of which were antibiotics.
No thoughts of playing...anything really. Lucky to be here.

 

[Targa]

Stuck in the 50's.
A valve radio in the corner. No television. No telephone. No fridge. Dance bands down the local Palais. Salvation Army the only live music I'd heard apart from the Church organ. Everything but the church shut on Sundays. So you might as well go. Short pants. Coal fires. Meat still on ration. Full employment but poor wages. Bomb sites here and there. Hand me down clothes. Few cars. Trams and a horse drawn milk man. Polio, Rickets and Scabies. 5/- a week for the doctor who turned up on a vespa with a bag full of pills. Non of which were antibiotics.
No thoughts of playing...anything really. Lucky to be here.

The NHS started in1948 although perhaps the 'doctor' on the Vespa wasn't the sort who was working for them.

 

[stitch]

Jumpers for goalposts?

 

[mizmar]

As this thread's been moved, IMHO, the idea of "beginner" needs to be clarified.

Further, there's a great ambiguity in the word "beginner" as much material is "beginner jazz" but "assumes competent musician". Fabrizios stuff is OBVIOUSLY directed at pretty competent, self sufficient, musicians.

In its original context, the discussion was in response to a video who's target audience was reasonably competent saxophone players, wanting (of their own free will) to learn a certain style of jazz rendition and improvisation (the sort of "beginner and intermediate" who are the majority in SOTW BITOTM, seems to me).
That is, obviously, different from someone with some competence in other musical instruments, begging sax; or someone with no background in playing music.

 

[thomsax]

What is "standards"? I was so diappointed after my first lesson with a saxophone teacher back in the 70's. I wanted help and tips to improve my tone and other tricks that I heard rock & roll saxophonists doing on recordings. He had prepared with sheet music like Autumn Leaves, Misty, Fly Me Too the Moon, Moon Indigo ...... . It was not my music. I never understood the meaning to play the singing/melody lines for 2-3 minutes as it was written. A teacher should declare the standard as well?

I talked about standard songs with some friends. The guys that are paid for playing knows most of these songs as it was performed/recorded with the artist that made it famous. The have folders with the sheet music so they often reed. Maybe they just know 1-3 in the band that is going to play at wedding? To play a Standard you must have reached a standard as player?

The same guys were also concered that the DJ's would take over thier jobs in future. "- We use to play all the old big band songs from 30's and 40's and just a few were dancing". Young people don't know or want to dance to that type of music. When the played ABBA songs more people were dancing. And when the played a Beyoncé, Lady Gaga ... songs the dancefloor was packed.

 

[Vetinari]

What are "standard" tunes? Every one is unique in it's own right but may fit into a particular genre. Does it mean a tune that is well known within it's own genre? Can a tune be a "standard" in more than one genre or style of playing?
Edit. Can a tune be classed as a standard tune for a particular instrument or several?

 

[Pete Thomas]

What are "standard" tunes? Every one is unique in it's own right but may fit into a particular genre. Does it mean a tune that is well known within it's own genre? Can a tune be a "standard" in more than one genre or style of playing?
Edit. Can a tune be classed as a standard tune for a particular instrument or several?

This thread is based on the concept of standards as popular songs from the 30s to 50s, what is generally known as the great American songbook.

The thread is about the validity of a. common assumption that they should be taught as essential to all beginner saxophone players. Not just that but I think the assumprion is that they form the main part rather than just being a small part. @Wade Cornell can verify that.

IE I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't be taught at all, or that they are of course not essential if the player has specifically chosen to pursue (for example) the genre of older jazz that relies hugely on that reprtoire.

So although I did indeed say this

Ie it’s archaic to assume standards only means songs from the so-called Great American Songbook.

For me it’s any tune from any time or genre that has become something that everyone knows.

The thread has now got more focussed and is now clarified.

 

[turf3]

One reason the "songbook standards" are good for learning with, is that they have a lot of harmonic movement so you can learn a lot about improvising over changes.

As to what's meant by university divisions into "classical" and "Jazz" I know that Berklee and North Texas have active programs in rock music as well; Berklee also has a very active bluegrass/country/Americana division.

There is, I suppose an argument to be made that for students it's important to use music they're familiar with and that feels "relevant" to them; on the other hand, the Suzuki methods start with Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and then move to melodies from Bach, Mozart, etc., and there's not a melody to be seen that dates after 1900; yet these methods seem spectacularly effective.

Maybe the real purpose of the thread was to discuss whether "Standards" in the sense of tunes that every working musician needs to know and will use frequently, should mean something different than "American Songbook Standards" which isn't really accurate either. Really, what jazzers mean by "standards" is "Broadway tunes that were used as improvising vehicles from the 1920s through the 1950s, plus some tunes written by jazz players specifically for improvising on, in the general style of those Broadway tunes". Whereas if you say "American Songbook" I start looking for the hillbilly tunes, the cowboy tunes, the old time ballads, the hymns, the gospel songs, Stephen C. Foster, and the blues.

 

[Pete Thomas]

One reason the "songbook standards" are good for learning with, is that they have a lot of harmonic movement so you can learn a lot about improvising over changes.

They are good for that, but it somehow assumes that is what everyone should or wants to learn about improvising over those sorts of (ofetn complex) changes. Which is why I totally ignored that kind of changes when I wrote TTS vol 2 learning to improvise because it's all about learning to improvise over very simple pop and rock tracks, or just one chord vamps.

I spent over 25 years working as a saxophone player , and although I was familiar with straight ahead jazz and those sorts of standards, I'd say in the end that was hardly any use at all for my professional work. Until I switched from becoming a player to a composer - then it was useful for pastiche work.

I learned jazz at college, but on my first few gigs in the real world it actually counted against me when I'd get involved in pop sessions, and the producer tells me it's a bit too jazzy.

Whereas if you say "American Songbook" I start looking for the hillbilly tunes, the cowboy tunes, the old time ballads, the hymns, the gospel songs, Stephen C. Foster, and the blues.

Yes, I can see that but I don't know what othert terminology to use. Great American Songbook has a huge amount of show tunes of course, many of which aren't very suitable vehicles for jazz anyway. Perhaps ot's more accurate to say the repertoire we mean is often ballroom dance repertoire, e.g. your foxtrot and quickstep.

But yes, you get standards within each genre so of course there are blues standards, country standards, bluegrass standards, trad jazz standards, jump jive standards etc.

So maybe we can alos use this thread to discuss other types of standards, but at the same time being aware of what I think by now, we all know what Wade Means who is now thye de facto thread starter and what @fabriziodalisera meant as the starter of the other thread.

And again I apologise for throwing a spanner in the works.here:

My list:

Happy Birthday
Guantanamera
Oh When the Saints Go Marching In
Pink Panther
Mustang Sally
Hava Nagila
Danny Boy
Donald Where’s Yer Trousers?
Jambalaya
Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White

And in fact Donald Where’s Yer Trousers? was just me being a bit cantankerous or mischievous probably.

 

[jbtsax]

One of the criteria that I use to define great music in any style is that it has survived the "test of time". The same is true of visual arts. Wide audience appeal and commercial success in my view describes music that speaks to the lowest common denominator and often comes and goes in popularity. Great music has "lasting value" and becomes part of our culture's musical heritage. Studying and performing music that fits in this category typically appeals to just a select audience, but musicians who do so keep this musical heritage alive for generations to come.

To me learning to play many of the jazz standards defined as the most recorded songs by the most artists gives me a deeper understanding of the musical heritage of that genre of music, exposes me to some of the great jazz music of generations before me, and perhaps most importantly adds to my level of musicianship. The same can be said of the great band literature I played in college, and the classical saxophone works I performed. Even those performance majors who have the aptitude and ability to "push the envelope" toward newer, more creative styles of music can benefit from having a solid foundation in the music that has come before.

 

[Pete Thomas]

To me learning to play many of the jazz standards defined as the most recorded songs by the most artists gives me a deeper understanding of the musical heritage of that genre of music,

I don't think that is being questioned here at all. I think it goes without saying that if you want to play that genre, then you need that repertoire.

I would question whether that genre and its repertoire needs to be taught (a) initially and (b) as the main focus of an education program for people learning the saxophone.

Great music has "lasting value" and becomes part of our culture's musical heritage.

I would also question whether the pop tunes of the 30s, 40s and 50s are all great music. That repertoire and the old school jazz has been kept alive by academia.

One reason I think is that it is more formulaic than later less structured forms and so is easier to teach. Hence academics often prefer to teach the old standards based mainstream "straight ahead" jazz than more modern styles. (And admittedly much of that such as later Coltrane, Ornette Colman, Joe Harriott, Anthony Braxton, Derek Bailey is also now very long in the tooth)

 

[Colin the Bear]

As far as dancing goes, swing dancing has a vibrant young following. Most university towns have a following and lessons from professionals are commonplace.

 

[jbtsax]

As far as dancing goes, swing dancing has a vibrant young following. Most university towns have a following and lessons from professionals are commonplace.

In Salt Lake City, Utah there is a very popular series called "Jazz at the Gallivan Center". On a regular basis local "big bands" are booked to play an hour and a half concert including latin and swing tunes, which is preceded by a half hour of dance instruction. People of all ages attend the free concerts with many of them coming to dance. It is a great way to keep this tradition alive for future generations.

 

[Colin the Bear]

And to keep fit. Too late for me.

 

[Pete Thomas]

In Salt Lake City, Utah there is a very popular series called "Jazz at the Gallivan Center".

Yes I’ve noticed a few revival dance scenes, e.g. lindyhop and salsa. Not round here sadly

 

[nigeld]

Lots of swing dance happening in Bristol

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thinking about swing though, you don’t tend to hear of the main Glenn Miller tunes as standards, showing up in real book or called jam sessions.