Tone or Sound subtone

[saxn00b445]

is subtone supposed to be achieved by moving the bottom lip lower on the reed to dampen the sound? or is it achieved by just lowering/widening the airstream and keeping the embrochure the same?
found you can achieve a subtone by doing both but am not sure if one or the other is better, or if they can both be done interchangably. also i find doing the former (dampening the reed by moving the bottom of the lip lower on the reed) makes the sound slightly more thin and muffled than doing the latter variation of subtone.

 

[Tuppertn]

Ooo, technique stuff. Me likey. I'll be anxious to hear how the real players here respond.

Personally, I think of it more like getting a partial sound with airstream management rather than dampening your full sound. As your airflow ramps up, there's an intermediate phase where only part of the reed is vibrating at a relatively low amplitude. Normally, we start with a strong airstream and transition quickly through that partially vibrating phase. For subtone, it's balancing the air to get the reed into that intermediate phase where is just starts vibrating and holding it there.

I don't know if it's "correct" or not but I prefer to keep a stronger airstream and allow the excess air pressure to leak out the corners of my embouchure. I lower my jaw, relax the corners of my mouth and just lay in a fat, slow airstream like you're trying to fog up a cold window pane.

 

[skeller047]

For subtone, I blow into the mouthpiece rather than through the horn. And less air than for a full tone. That’s just how it feels. I do move my lower lip back a bit (toward the tip of the reed) too, but it’s really mostly about the air stream.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Try every way you can think of, and listen to what's happening. If you're making a sound that is unpleasant, do it a different way.

 

[Pete Thomas]

There's a short tutorial on Taming the Saxophone:

Subtone on the Saxophone

How to get a full on big fat soft and sexy smoky subtone sound like the great players. It's easier than you think.

tamingthesaxophone.com

 

[Pete Effamy]

For subtone, I blow into the mouthpiece rather than through the horn. And less air than for a full tone. That’s just how it feels. I do move my lower lip back a bit (toward the tip of the reed) too, but it’s really mostly about the air stream.

So this begs another question:

Does subtone have to be on the quiet side ?

If it’s mostly attained by a lesser feeling of air travelling through the horn, then this must be so ?

If it’s more about some sort of change in embouchure, then healthy air can push through the horn and potentially create a loud subtone (?).

Let’s presume no mic, just acoustic.

 

[JayeNM]

So this begs another question:

Does subtone have to be on the quiet side ?

If it’s mostly attained by a lesser feeling of air travelling through the horn, then this must be so ?

If it’s more about some sort of change in embouchure, then healthy air can push through the horn and potentially create a loud subtone (?).

Let’s presume no mic, just acoustic.

So asking your Q from an opposite direction....can one subtone loudly ?

 

[Pete Thomas]

So asking your Q from an opposite direction....can one subtone loudly ?

Yes one can. You can also subtone with growl.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Yes one can. You can also subtone with growl.

I agree.

 

[teen37]

So guys, I haven't been on here in a long while, sorry, missed a lot, but looking at this thread, as I'm currently trying to perfect my Subtone, I thought it was down to resistance in your reed choice? Am I wrong? I mean, I know it's breath control too but thought it was reed choice also. 🤷

 

[Pete Effamy]

So guys, I haven't been on here in a long while, sorry, missed a lot, but looking at this thread, as I'm currently trying to perfect my Subtone, I thought it was down to resistance in your reed choice? Am I wrong? I mean, I know it's breath control too but thought it was reed choice also. 🤷

A hard(er) reed will give air in the sound automatically. Like Getz. But that's not the technique of Subtone. If you decided to do a Paul Desmond thing, for instance; it might be easier to build into your setup some air / fluff - as he did. So you wouldn't want to come at this type of sound from say, a Dukoff D8 and a #2 reed because this want to naturally buzz. You can still take all the edge off though by playing with subtone.

 

[teen37]

A hard(er) reed will give air in the sound automatically. Like Getz. But that's not the technique of Subtone. If you decided to do a Paul Desmond thing, for instance; it might be easier to build into your setup some air / fluff - as he did. So you wouldn't want to come at this type of sound from say, a Dukoff D8 and a #2 reed because this want to naturally buzz. You can still take all the edge off though by playing with subtone.

Ok, thanks Pete 😉 I am striving after the Getz sound actually and I'm just off the back of visiting Sax.co in London, came home with an Otto link hr6. I've gone up slightly on my vandoren reed to give a little more resistance and I'm not too displeased with it so far but it's early days. I am, however, considering upgrading from my student tenor to a more intermediate saxophone but I'm really confused at what to look at with my budget of £1500 ish .,...🤷 Another thread maybe?

 

[JayeNM]

Ok, thanks Pete 😉 I am striving after the Getz sound actually and I'm just off the back of visiting Sax.co in London, came home with an Otto link hr6. I've gone up slightly on my vandoren reed to give a little more resistance and I'm not too displeased with it so far but it's early days. I am, however, considering upgrading from my student tenor to a more intermediate saxophone but I'm really confused at what to look at with my budget of £1500 ish .,...🤷 Another thread maybe?

IMHO....don't mix your desire for new gear with 'so I can learn how to properly Subtone'

One can learn to subtone consistently on a student sax (providing it isn't leaking).

One can work out subtoning on a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece too.

So...if your idea is you gotta get better hardware to improve fundamentals....unless your current hardware is really faulty...that probably is ersatz.

IF...say...you 'are thinking of upgrading from your student model' because, say, the tonality of it is a bit thin, or the intonation can be a bit of a challenge, or ...when you play more expensive horns the key response or ergos is way nicer....just to name a few...and maybe some of these are in combination...

Then, yes, start a thread on that.

"hi all I currently play an Xxxx model, mouthpiece setup is a Yyyy...have been playing for Z years, thinking of stepping up to a better horn....budget is -----.....suggestions ?"

Is a better opening question than ' i have X quid and want a better horn'...if you get my drift. More info you can provide in that query, the more focused and useful the replies will be.

 

[teen37]

IMHO....don't mix your desire for new gear with 'so I can learn how to properly Subtone'

One can learn to subtone consistently on a student sax (providing it isn't leaking).

One can work out subtoning on a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece too.

So...if your idea is you gotta get better hardware to improve fundamentals....unless your current hardware is really faulty...that probably is ersatz.

IF...say...you 'are thinking of upgrading from your student model' because, say, the tonality of it is a bit thin, or the intonation can be a bit of a challenge, or ...when you play more expensive horns the key response or ergos is way nicer....just to name a few...and maybe some of these are in combination...

Then, yes, start a thread on that.

"hi all I currently play an Xxxx model, mouthpiece setup is a Yyyy...have been playing for Z years, thinking of stepping up to a better horn....budget is -----.....suggestions ?"

Is a better opening question than ' i have X quid and want a better horn'...if you get my drift. More info you can provide in that query, the more focused and useful the replies will be.

Thank you. I wasn't really that I need a better horn to achieve the sound tbh, I can get a half decent Subtone with my setup now, I just really wanted to get a better horn that has better intonation, sound and key action actually. Also, I do appreciate that it is a completely different thread subject so wasn't really expecting any kind of response regarding the question, it was more me thinking out loud 🤷 sorry if that mislead y'all 😉

 

[r. giuseppe]

The way I do it, subtone is primarily an embouchure technique but it affects air support and airstream, which need to adjust.
Technically I use less mouthpiece, a larger lower lip contact area on the reed and less pressure on the reed, which together cuts some of the high frequencies.

The difference to a “normal” embouchure is biggest when playing at low volumes, here is what happens when I do this:
With a “proper, no noise” embouchure, the embouchure tightness limits airflow through the mouthpiece, and all air needs to be transformed into tone, while the air support (pressure from the diaphragm, belly) is held up for proper control. When I play louder, more air is allowed through, but still all of it should become tone.

With a subtone, air flow is quite high even at very low volumes, but some of the air enters the mouthpiece without being transformed into tone and makes air noise instead. The lower lip is used to have the reed transform some of the air into tone. Very little at low volumes (much noise, fuh fuh), a larger fraction with increasing volumes. So some tone gets dialed in into an existing air flow.

Of course there are a lot of “in betweens”, and at very high volumes both embouchures get more and more similar to each other. I feel that most jazz players have some subtone even in their normal tone.

 

[r. giuseppe]

P.S.: Smaller tip openings and softer reeds enable a noise free tone production with a “proper” embouchure at low volumes, they are hard to subtone when it gets louder.
Harder reeds and (even more) large tip openings need much more power from the chops for a noise-free “proper” tone production at all volumes and are way easier to handle in soft volumes when subtoned a bit.

 

[teen37]

The way I do it, subtone is primarily an embouchure technique but it affects air support and airstream, which need to adjust.
Technically I use less mouthpiece, a larger lower lip contact area on the reed and less pressure on the reed, which together cuts some of the high frequencies.

The difference to a “normal” embouchure is biggest when playing at low volumes, here is what happens when I do this:
With a “proper, no noise” embouchure, the embouchure tightness limits airflow through the mouthpiece, and all air needs to be transformed into tone, while the air support (pressure from the diaphragm, belly) is held up for proper control. When I play louder, more air is allowed through, but still all of it should become tone.

With a subtone, air flow is quite high even at very low volumes, but some of the air enters the mouthpiece without being transformed into tone and makes air noise instead. The lower lip is used to have the reed transform some of the air into tone. Very little at low volumes (much noise, fuh fuh), a larger fraction with increasing volumes. So some tone gets dialed in into an existing air flow.

Of course there are a lot of “in betweens”, and at very high volumes both embouchures get more and more similar to each other. I feel that most jazz players have some subtone even in their normal tone.

Thank you so much for the indepth explanation, I will endeavour to apply it during my practice sessions and play around with the different sounds produced with adjusting my embouchure ☺️