Stop counting in head yet?

[tryinghard]

Hi all,

Apologies if someone else covered this, I've done a few searches and can't find it but I'm sure everyone has gone through this. Counting to the music - when do you stop when practicing.

To elaborate, 8 or 12-bars of music to play along to with a backing track, getting the notes right, getting the timing right and it's sounding ok. Should I now be concentrating on the sound quality (given that I know the few bars and don't really need to count in my head) or do I keep up the counting because I'll always have to do this to make sure I keep time with the backing.

Actually, this is two questions really:

1. As a beginner should I always be counting the time in my head whenever I'm reading or practicing a written piece.
2. When you're a "real" sax player, do you always mentally count the beats in the bar and does it become naturally? Always happening in the background of your brain or do you just do it when you're learning a piece?

Hope this makes sense. If not let me know and I'll try and explain it better :S

Thanks.

 

[Linky Lee]

I find that I've got to the point where I don't consciously count in my head when play, but I am keeping a track somewhere in there.

When I'm improvising I do have to count sometimes as I haven't quite got used to that yet.

When learning something new, counting in your head is helpful if it doesn't get in the way of your playing. Ideally you should be able to count in your head and still think about making a good tone etc.

 

[nick_cook]

[color:green] I've stopped counting - but only because I can't seem to concentrate on counting and playing at the same time!!!!
:S
It's something I keep meaning to try to do again!!!
[/color]

 

[RedBottom]

Linky's right. There will come a time when you count more or less automatically and will only be conscious of it when you have something tricky to play.

I find that once the conductor has given us the initial tempo, I can stick with it without having to think about it too much, especially if we have a decent drummer around.

I remember counting a lot when I first practiced the Mission Impossible theme (5/4), but as I got used to the music then I went with that rather than the count.

A time when I do count quite consciously is, say, when I have offbeat quavers in 2/4. Then what I do is to count 4/8 in my head - much too fast for the boss to conduct, but I find it helps.

There's guy who sits beside me in one of the bands I play in who counts his rests very deliberately as though he were actually conducting. In all fairness to him, he's only been playing a few months (and he's doing very well) but it's one heck of a distraction if I happen to be playing in those bits.

 

[Pete Thomas]

TryingHard wrote:

1. As a beginner should I always be counting the time in my head whenever I'm reading or practicing a written piece.
2. When you're a "real" sax player, do you always mentally count the beats in the bar and does it become naturally? Always happening in the background of your brain or do you just do it when you're learning a piece?

1) No, but it doesn't do any harm if you need to. Try playing without counting, record it and check whether you are right, wrong or close enough.

2) Not sure if I qualify for a "real" player yet, (we're all beginners), but I have many years under my belt. I don't count in my head. If I am reading, then I am at a stage where I read whole phrases rather than single notes - a bit like reading words - to begin with you read each letter or syllable, then you read a whole word and eventually you take in a whole sentence.

Sometimes I might count if there are several bars rest, especially in time signatures that are out of the ordinary for me, but if the harmonic structure to the backing is something I know or can hear, then I would concentrate on that rather than counting.

 

[Linky Lee]

Pete's 2nd point is very true.

Quite often I have a look around when I've got some rests in the big band, tie my shoe laces, grab a cup of coffee or something 😛

What I do notice though is that quite a few people have their head in the music counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 2, 2, 3, 4, 3, 2, 3, 4.
I tend to find, the people that don't fit in with the band as well as others are the ones doing this (with beginners it's different, but we all had to audition and the level is pretty high). To me these people stand out as the ones not listening and just playing from the dots.

It's quite easy to listen to the rest of the band and realise when your 8 bars rest is coming to an end, or when the next section has started etc.

You will eventually get to the point where you sub consciously feel the beat and follow it. Once you can do that it's much easier for your playing as you can fiddle around with the beat and relax more into your playing. You do need to be able to count and play though in case you get stuck.

 

[tryinghard]

Fantastic responses, thanks to everyone.

I was really hoping that the 1,2,3,4 thing could be used for learning new pieces or "reading" the timing to get new music into your head and then just rely on the timing as a passive thing once you're playing the music (or in emergencies when you stuff up).

Even the short little bits I'm doing at the moment are much more fun when I stop my mental metronoming and just play the music.

Really appreciate your thoughts/views, thanks.

 

[phil_edwards]

Pete Thomas wrote:

1) No, but it doesn't do any harm if you need to. Try playing without counting, record it and check whether you are right, wrong or close enough.

Great idea of Pete's. Give it a go on something you're comfortable with and you'll get an idea of how accurate you are on some familiar pieces.

If you've not got anything to record yourself with, get a (quiet) metronome and ask someone to count you in for a couple of bars then off you go - see if you're on the correct bar/beat after a short while. Build up in short phrases to keep an eye on progress.

regards, Phil

 

[razorfish]

Hi

Being a newbie on the sax i cant really comment as a saxophone player. However, i have played the drums in many bands over the last twenty years. I can proably offer some advise on this.

Keeping time, easy once you know how. It easy for some of us and hard for others. Some might say its easy for a drummer as we count with our right hand, and right foot. They are right!

I often play with guitar players, who have loads of feel and great great time, whilst the drummer is playing. Because they use the drummer as support. However is is great until they have solo "solo" and they can can fall to pieces.

The advice i would give, is listen to the groove of the drummer and bass player. But keep in time with a tap of the foot, move of the body etc. So when they are know longer there, you can feel the grove. Count bars not notes. It soon becomes natural!!!

Sorry for rambling, hope it makes sense!

Cheers Chris

 

[tryinghard]

Thanks Chris.

Makes lots of sense to me. As I get to know the piece I stop counting and start to enjoy it and concentrate on the sound quality. Much more fun, but just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on an essential part of practice (getting used to continuously counting!)

Haven't played with others yet (still a bit too soon - the backing track doesn't complain and stops at the press of a button!) but looking forward to it and will take your advise. To be honest I find myself tapping unconsciously anyway.

Cheers & thanks for the thoughts.