Intonation Soprano Sax Tuning

[Dibbs]

John, Please actually read some of the document I cited. There's useful information before the heavy maths even starts.

The first page states:

"
...methods for compensating bends in air columns when designing wind instruments have been proposed, as, for example, a reduction of the bore diameter at bends .

However, reducing the bore diameter at bends to compensate for the tuning change supposes that this change is weakly frequency-dependent, or, at least, that the frequency shift, or the length correction, remains the same sign over the musically useful frequency range.

It is shown in the present paper that the frequency shift, or the length correction, in a bend, may vary significantly over frequency and that its sign changes. The curvature not always increases the resonance frequencies, but may even decrease them, resulting in a complex inharmonicity.
"

So this sort of compensation only works for one register. Of course there may be bore perturbations elsewhere in an instrument to compensate but the conclusion has to be that a curved and a straight crook will behave differently on any particular instrument.

 

[Admitone]

So why not a straight alto or tenor?

 

[Nick Wyver]

So why not a straight alto or tenor?

Have you ever played one? They're terrible.

 

[Admitone]

Have you ever played one? They're terrible.

Haven't played one. But wouldn't a straight alto have the same acoustic characteristics as a straight soprano? And a curved alto a curved soprano?

 

[Nick Wyver]

A straight alto sounds just like a curved alto. Just a pain to handle.

 

[jbtsax]

John, Please actually read some of the document I cited. There's useful information before the heavy maths even starts.

The first page states:

"
...methods for compensating bends in air columns when designing wind instruments have been proposed, as, for example, a reduction of the bore diameter at bends .

However, reducing the bore diameter at bends to compensate for the tuning change supposes that this change is weakly frequency-dependent, or, at least, that the frequency shift, or the length correction, remains the same sign over the musically useful frequency range.

It is shown in the present paper that the frequency shift, or the length correction, in a bend, may vary significantly over frequency and that its sign changes. The curvature not always increases the resonance frequencies, but may even decrease them, resulting in a complex inharmonicity.
"

So this sort of compensation only works for one register. Of course there may be bore perturbations elsewhere in an instrument to compensate but the conclusion has to be that a curved and a straight crook will behave differently on any particular instrument.

I am a bit confused. I have downloaded and read the study entitled "Influence of a toroidal bend on wind instrument tuning" by Cornelis J. Nederveen and cannot find the language you quoted. The link to the pdf download I used is this: Influence of a toroidal bend on wind instrument tuning

 

[Nikki]

You’re a ‘bit’ confused? I’m a ‘lot’ confused.
Most of it went over my head. All I know is I love the sound of my straight soprano saxophone but do have a bit of a time getting it at the right angle without it hurting my thumb. When I researched this, I discovered that’s it not not uncommon.

 

[CliveMA]

Nikki

Deluxe WAW Sax Thumb Rest works for Alto and Tenor by providing a bridge over the F# trill keycap, allowing right thumb to be placed more naturally opposite the index finger. I asked manufacturer and he has no plans to make it for Soprano unfortunately. This is simply 3D printed. Maybe an enterprising Café member could customise a 3D print model that would work for soprano? (Sopranos vary a lot in design but maybe someone could make for the most popular Yamaha 475!)

Thumb Splint stabiliser is available with bars to stabilise around thumb (transfer weight to base of thumb) or to simply act as a reminder not to gorilla grip keys or lift weight with thumb.

Clive

 

[Nikki]

In researching this problem it appears I’m not the only one with this problem. Here is a device made specifically for the very problem.
ERGOsax Soprano Saxophone Support

It’ might look awkward but there are many out there who have difficulty holding up the saxophone to get the tone they want with their thumb alone and I’m one of them.

Here is a picture of this device in action. It’s not the most attractive look but I’m playing for the sound, not to look good.

 

[Nikki]

And here’s some information from other players about this same problem.
Sax on the Web Forum

 

[Nick Wyver]

And here’s some information from other players about this same problem.
Sax on the Web Forum

That link doesn't work for me.

 

[Dibbs]

I am a bit confused. I have downloaded and read the study entitled "Influence of a toroidal bend on wind instrument tuning" by Cornelis J. Nederveen and cannot find the language you quoted. The link to the pdf download I used is this: Influence of a toroidal bend on wind instrument tuning

Whoops! My fault. Sorry. This is what I meant to link to

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00643184v1/document

 

[Greg Strange]

So why not a straight alto or tenor?

Somebody once described the tonal quality of a straight alto saxophone as a tenor sax with a head cold...how about a straight baritone...I believe Buescher built one for Bennie Moten in the 1920s/1930s...here's a custom made one...

Jay C. Easton: Saxophone Family Gallery

Greg S.

P.S. It helps if your about 9 feet tall to play the straight baritone or stand on a tall box...

 

[Pete Effamy]

Somebody once described the tonal quality of a straight alto saxophone as a tenor sax with a head cold...how about a straight baritone...I believe Buescher built one for Bennie Moten in the 1920s/1930s...here's a custom made one...

Jay C. Easton: Saxophone Family Gallery

Greg S.

P.S. It helps if your about 9 feet tall to play the straight baritone or stand on a tall box...

The really big sax in the old picture isn’t an octa-contra-wotsit. It’s obviously an alto for someone with gigantism. Or someone in self-quarantine in a first floor apartment.

 

[Greg Strange]

The really big sax in the old picture isn’t an octa-contra-wotsit. It’s obviously an alto for someone with gigantism. Or someone in self-quarantine in a first floor apartment.

Dr. Paul Cohen wrote about that particular instrument in an article for "Saxophone Journal" magazine many years ago. According to the article it was made by Conn for display purposes but the engineers/ technicians that built the sax made it so it actually worked. Apparently the tone hole cups were the size of pie plates...

maybe King Kong could have played it on the top of the Empire State Building...

Greg S.

 

[jbtsax]

Whoops! My fault. Sorry. This is what I meant to link to

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00643184v1/document

That link doesn't work on my computer.

 

[Dibbs]

That link doesn't work on my computer.

It's available in various places, The full title is

Effects of bending portions of the air column on the acoustical resonances of a wind instrument

Google sould find one you can access.

 

[vries1]

Dibbs' link works fine for me. Interesting stuff but I will need a bit of time to digest!

 

[jbtsax]

It's available in various places, The full title is

Effects of bending portions of the air column on the acoustical resonances of a wind instrument

Google sould find one you can access.

None of the links to the HAL document worked using Mozilla Firefox, but I was able to download the paper using Internet Explorer. It will take some time to study the information before I can comment.

 

[Nikki]

That link doesn't work for me.

Try this.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...x-playing-support-for-Soprano-Saxophone&amp=1