Intonation Soprano Sax Tuning

[CliveMA]

Is resistance higher with a curved neck? Higher again with curved body?

 

[Nikki]

Interesting topic. This topic came up when I was researching soprano saxophones to purchase. I’d had an alto since 1973 which played nicely and in tune. When I inquired about curved soprano saxophones I was told two different things.

1/. Curved saxophones are more difficult to play in tune due to the shortness in length as well as the fact that the sound needs to bend around the curve.
2/. Curved saxophones are easier to play in tune since you can hear the sound clearer due to the curve.

I chose a Yamaha YSS 475 model and instantly fell in love with the tone. It was beautiful sounding on my first try and while I agree with David who mentioned that not ALL the sound comes through the bell of the instrument , I believe that ‘most’ of it does.

What I did find that was that my embouchure was different while playing my straight saxophone than my curved one which DID in fact make a difference.

Due to this difference my throat wasn’t as open and the only way to change this was to tilt my saxophone out more which then put too much strain on my thumb. My thumb became severely damaged due to this change.

There are devices made for these which help hold these types of instruments in the proper position to get the best sound possible for those who don’t have the thumb strength to do so.

 

[CliveMA]

Misty subtoned on Curved Sop. WDYT?

 

[CliveMA]

Classical lower-lips-close-to-over-teeth embouchure on straight sop playing Love Story relatively close to the body. Contrast this with the embouchure in my immediate prior post where the player has practically swallowed the mouthpiece, including puffed cheeks.

 

[CliveMA]

The point of these two above posts:

1. Curvy can play in tune and be sultry like a Tenor and not a toy.
2. Straight can be played close to body with body weight supported on neckstrap.

 

[Pete Effamy]

“problem with getting both types of saxes in tune with each other”

There isn't. It should read "problem with getting both players in tune with each other”

 

[Pete Effamy]

Classical lower-lips-close-to-over-teeth embouchure on straight sop playing Love Story relatively close to the body. Contrast this with the embouchure in my immediate prior post where the player has practically swallowed the mouthpiece, including puffed cheeks.

You're not just comparing embouchure types here, but also their concept of sound. Oh, and a rather large gulf in ability.

 

[Pete Effamy]

So can we tell which form of the soprano is being played just by the sound? Why, what is it?

Let's counter Jess Gillam with a suitable comparison.

View: https://youtu.be/8_5oaZVGsh8

 

[Nikki]

No but just for interest I’d say curved saxophone. I think like others mentioned, the player is the one who makes sure they are playing in tune, just like a singer would by adjusting position and embouchure.
( in my opinion )

 

[Pete Effamy]

No but just for interest I’d say curved saxophone. I think like others mentioned, the player is the one who makes sure they are playing in tune, just like a singer would by adjusting position and embouchure.
( in my opinion )

Excellent! You failed. Brandon plays a straight soprano.

 

[Nick Wyver]

So can we tell which form of the soprano is being played just by the sound?

No.
For those that may have missed it in the "What are you listening to" thread, here's Trygve Seim doing strange things with a curved sop (old Conn I think). Could you do that with a modern straight one?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHs13sZ0Bvg&t=450s

 

[Pete Effamy]

Branford Marsalis and Bob Shepherd also play straight soprano with no sharp edges in their sound. There are different concepts for soprano just like the other saxes. I did have a curved Yani 991 but couldn't get used to the shape and how it addressed the body, it felt really awkward to me. Happier with straight. Didn't like the Yani 901 though.

 

[CliveMA]

You're not just comparing embouchure types here, but also their concept of sound. Oh, and a rather large gulf in ability.

That's what I'm saying: neither curved nor straight are chained to restricted sound concepts. The individual player can, in time, achieve their own sound concept on either with determined practice (given sufficient ability potential).

Secondly, I'm saying the straight soprano is not forced to be held far away from the player's body. For example, the classical sound can be achieved with a clarinet-style embouchure ala Jess Gillam and the straight sop close to the body. Numerous youtube clips show looser jazz-style embouchures with head bent forward so as to keep straight sop close to the body.

There are many sound concepts for soprano sax, but there are also many ways of skinning that cat to achieve a compromise between sound concept, personal desire for straight or curved, and physical compromises such as sore thumbs, arms, neck and short and long term health.

A player can buy either straight or curved or neck-only curve or whatever is there personal preference and then "dance with the lady they brung" to achieve their desired result.

 

[Pete Effamy]

That's what I'm saying: neither curved nor straight are chained to restricted sound concepts. The individual player can, in time, achieve their own sound concept on either with determined practice (given sufficient ability potential).

Secondly, I'm saying the straight soprano is not forced to be held far away from the player's body. For example, the classical sound can be achieved with a clarinet-style embouchure ala Jess Gillam and the straight sop close to the body. Numerous youtube clips show looser jazz-style embouchures with head bent forward so as to keep straight sop close to the body.

There are many sound concepts for soprano sax, but there are also many ways of skinning that cat to achieve a compromise between sound concept, personal desire for straight or curved, and physical compromises such as sore thumbs, arms, neck and short and long term health.

A player can buy either straight or curved or neck-only curve or whatever is there personal preference and then "dance with the lady they brung" to achieve their desired result.

Yep cool. Gotcha. I agree.

 

[jbtsax]

Interesting topic. This topic came up when I was researching soprano saxophones to purchase. I’d had an alto since 1973 which played nicely and in tune. When I inquired about curved soprano saxophones I was told two different things.

1/. Curved saxophones are more difficult to play in tune due to the shortness in length as well as the fact that the sound needs to bend around the curve.
2/. Curved saxophones are easier to play in tune since you can hear the sound clearer due to the curve.

This is definitely misinformation. Think about all of the bends and "U-turns" in most typical brass instruments. Soundwaves "bend" around curves in these instruments with no negative effect upon the intonation. That said, Benade writes that the sound waves "going around" a "U-turn" bend in a saxophone "see" a tube that is slightly longer and wider than its actual geometry. Instrument manufacturers must take this into account in order for the notes low C and below to play in tune.

It is true that with an upward facing bell on any saxophone it is easier for the player to hear what is coming out the bell than if the instrument is straight and the bell points down and away. In my experience the mouthpiece angle should be the same whether the soprano sax is straight or curved. Many modern straight sopranos also come with a slightly curved neck which allows the instrument to be held in a more comfortable position using the slightly tilted downward mouthpiece angle.

 

[GCinCT]

Secondly, I'm saying the straight soprano is not forced to be held far away from the player's body. For example, the classical sound can be achieved with a clarinet-style embouchure ala Jess Gillam and the straight sop close to the body. Numerous youtube clips show looser jazz-style embouchures with head bent forward so as to keep straight sop close to the body.

I respectfully disagree. It’s not a matter of a Jazz vs. classical embouchure, it’s saxophone vs. clarinet embouchure. The soprano is not a clarinet and requires a saxophone embouchure.
Also, bending the head forward will partially close the throat and restrict airflow. The head should be up when playing any wind instrument.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I respectfully disagree. It’s not a matter of a Jazz vs. classical embouchure, it’s saxophone vs. clarinet embouchure. The soprano is not a clarinet and requires a saxophone embouchure.
Also, bending the head forward will partially close the throat and restrict airflow. The head should be up when playing any wind instrument.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pFVWS4uxi9s

 

[Nikki]

This is definitely misinformation. Think about all of the bends and "U-turns" in most typical brass instruments. Soundwaves "bend" around curves in these instruments with no negative effect upon the intonation. That said, Benade writes that the sound waves "going around" a "U-turn" bend in a saxophone "see" a tube that is slightly longer and wider than its actual geometry. Instrument manufacturers must take this into account in order for the notes low C and below to play in tune.

It is true that with an upward facing bell on any saxophone it is easier for the player to hear what is coming out the bell than if the instrument is straight and the bell points down and away. In my experience the mouthpiece angle should be the same whether the soprano sax is straight or curved. Many modern straight sopranos also come with a slightly curved neck which allows the instrument to be held in a more comfortable position using the slightly tilted downward mouthpiece angle.

What I did say was that was ‘I’ find while playing ‘my’ saxophone. It was a personal opinion, and not based on fact. To my ears the saxophone sounds better to ‘me’ if I play it this way. I certainly wasn’t trying to change anyone else’s mind in how they play theirs

 

[Nikki]

In my experience the mouthpiece angle should be the same whether the soprano sax is straight or curved. Many modern straight sopranos also come with a slightly curved neck which allows the instrument to be held in a more comfortable position using the slightly tilted downward mouthpiece angle.

Quote: “In your experience the mouthpiece angle should be the same whether the saxophone is straight or curved “ END QUOTE

But many aren’t
I can assure you that my embouchure while playing my alto saxophone is completely different than while playing the straight one.
I DO NOT have the curved neck so HAVE to adjust this saxophone to get the right embouchure which hurts.

This is fact. Not merely an opinion.

 

[Nikki]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pFVWS4uxi9s

And notice how far out he is pushing that saxophone? He’s young. Maybe his thumb can handle it. Mine can’t.