Saxophones Should I save her? Grassi 2000 Professional Tenor - Restoration?

[ProfJames]

Geoff did a great job for me! Dawkes even said it was a very professional set of work. So I would recommend him. In this instance for cost you must factor in either postal or petrol costs.

May well be that for approx - £50 sax - £180 Geoff - £150(?) dipping....lets say £500 spent for a resurrected Grassi......sold for £700.......nice job!

 

[Colin the Bear]

And it may yet turn out to be "the one"

 

[milandro]

tat was a typo ( or did I mean tit for tat? : )

Anyway, £50! Wow how could this possibly be a wrong deal?

I read what Stephen wrote and “ Ubi maior minor cessat” but would this horn still bleed acid after almost 40 years? If not could re lacquering be still an option?

 

[Stephen Howard]

I read what Stephen wrote and “ Ubi maior minor cessat” but would this horn still bleed acid after almost 40 years? If not could re lacquering be still an option?

I think it's a common misconception that acid bleed comes from hidden pools of acid just waiting to break out of joints and wreak havoc. It's far more likely to be due to dried flux residue that remains largely inert until such times as moisture finds its way into the joint.
If that's the case then it's probably going to be impossible to remove all of the residues - unless you desolder the joints.
All it takes is for one pinprick hole to let a bit of air in and condensation will do the rest.

It's certainly not uncommon to see it on relacquered horns of some vintage.

 

[DavidUK]

tat was a typo ( or did I mean tit for tat? : )

Anyway, £50! Wow how could this possibly be a wrong deal?

I read what Stephen wrote and “ Ubi maior minor cessat” but would this horn still bleed acid after almost 40 years? If not could re lacquering be still an option?

Serial number places it at late 80's so 25 years but no different from 40 really.
I really don't want to re-lacquer it as this step seems to attract the most criticism and may put off potential buyers. A "protected" bare brass finish would be best as plating once again makes it "messed with" in my opinion.

Love the "finish" of the sax in post #13 here: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?197481-Lacquer-Removal&p=2054892&viewfull=1#post2054892

Selenic acid & gin! :shocked:

 

[Jamesmac]

I think it's a common misconception that acid bleed comes from hidden pools of acid just waiting to break out of joints and wreak havoc. It's far more likely to be due to dried flux residue that remains largely inert until such times as moisture finds its way into the joint.
If that's the case then it's probably going to be impossible to remove all of the residues - unless you desolder the joints.
All it takes is for one pinprick hole to let a bit of air in and condensation will do the rest.

It's certainly not uncommon to see it on relacquered horns of some vintage.

Not that I would or could think of something that you have not thought of, but just a thought. There is usually a ridge running along the side of the soldered area, a recess that could be filed with a marine quality silicon, and thus sealing the soldered area.:shocked:

 

[Stephen Howard]

I don't think it would be a practical proposition.

 

[milandro]

I think it's a common misconception that acid bleed comes from hidden pools of acid just waiting to break out of joints and wreak havoc. It's far more likely to be due to dried flux residue that remains largely inert until such times as moisture finds its way into the joint.
If that's the case then it's probably going to be impossible to remove all of the residues - unless you desolder the joints.
All it takes is for one pinprick hole to let a bit of air in and condensation will do the rest.

It's certainly not uncommon to see it on relacquered horns of some vintage.

ok, then unlacquered, if that needs being so........there are worse things in life!

 

[DavidUK]

Well, I've spoken to Colin Molloy in Manchester. He's cleaned and polished a sax before!! Hoorah! And loads of other brass instruments. Cost-wise, to dip-strip in a mild caustic tank to remove the lacquer, then polish body, keys, rods, guards, as he did on the last one (another bargain buy of someone's who paid "£20 and a pack of lager" for it) it'll be £80-100.

As I'm a "regular" I'd think Colin will charge me the lower end £80. He is THE man in the gun trade for metal refinishing (Google "Colin Molloy Bluing") and I've always been absolutely amazed at his work for me.

Here's a rifle restoration I did with Colin's Bluing: http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/slideshow/22262009

So, project looking good now as I know Colin's polishing will be fab. I discussed plating but he advises against this, both from his practical perspective of actually doing it, and also his advice that bare brass if looked after a little shouldn't develop horribly. He did offer caution about an individual's sweat and how this can vary in the way it affects the brass.

So.... £50 sax, £80 dip-strip & polish, £180 re-pad, postage £20 to/from Colin, petrol £20 to/from Geoff (he's near enough) = £350. Less sale of MP (if I can EVER get it off!), say, £50.
£300 for the whole project?

We'll see.

 

[DavidUK]

Steve, how has your unlacquered TJ Raw Tenor developed colour-wise? I understand TJ apply a coat of wax in the factory. Has this done much to protect the raw brass? Was it you who recommended spraying freshly polished brass with furniture polish as a possible way to give it some protection?

 

[Stephen Howard]

Steve, how has your unlacquered TJ Raw Tenor developed colour-wise? I understand TJ apply a coat of wax in the factory. Has this done much to protect the raw brass? Was it you who recommended spraying freshly polished brass with furniture polish as a possible way to give it some protection?

I tend to recommend car wax - on the principle that it has to withstand some pretty harsh extremes, and that it's likely to be very highly developed (you'd be majorly upset if it knackered your paintwork).

My RAW is standing up pretty well...but it has to be said that I'm not a messy player!

 

[DavidUK]

I tend to recommend car wax - on the principle that it has to withstand some pretty harsh extremes, and that it's likely to be very highly developed (you'd be majorly upset if it knackered your paintwork).

My RAW is standing up pretty well...but it has to be said that I'm not a messy player!

When I can be bothered to wax the car I usually use one with carnauba wax in it. So I googled "carnauba wax on brass". Here's the top four:
http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f140/carnauba-wax-49906.html
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1077590
http://ganoksin.com/blog/delpfinewelchdesigns/2008/10/12/sealing-patinas-brass-and-copper-with-wax/
http://mb.nawcc.org/archive/index.php/t-63689.html

Then I thought about my blued gun barrels... Bluing is a kind of rust on steel. It has to be protected from the air by applying oil. I use Ballistol. Wonderful stuff. http://www.ballistoluk.co.uk/

I apply, wipe it off until you can't see any remaining, then my blued steel is impervious to anything. Re-apply at intervals or after being in the rain. I wonder if it would protect brass in the same way. I'll ask Ballistol UK....

 

[Jamesmac]

When I can be bothered to wax the car I usually use one with carnauba wax in it. So I googled "carnauba wax on brass". Here's the top four:
http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f140/carnauba-wax-49906.html
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1077590
http://ganoksin.com/blog/delpfinewelchdesigns/2008/10/12/sealing-patinas-brass-and-copper-with-wax/
http://mb.nawcc.org/archive/index.php/t-63689.html

Then I thought about my blued gun barrels... Bluing is a kind of rust on steel. It has to be protected from the air by applying oil. I use Ballistol. Wonderful stuff. http://www.ballistoluk.co.uk/

I apply, wipe it off until you can't see any remaining, then my blued steel is impervious to anything. Re-apply at intervals or after being in the rain. I wonder if it would protect brass in the same way. I'll ask Ballistol UK....

I tried that already. My Sax went Balistic:shocked:

 

[DavidUK]

Steve, a question about re-padding, polishing, and tone holes....

If I'm correct, rolled tone holes are kinder to pads due to the rounded top to the tone hole edge - the "rolled" bit.
Bevelled tone holes seem to be the contrary, like blades sticking into the pads, but maybe a smaller contact area so better for some reason I can't fathom.
Standard tone holes have an edge which is squared off, and digs into the pad with its two right angled sides. Better to my mind than bevelled, not so good as rolled.
Question: If my metal polisher was to run his polishing mop over a standard "square" tone hole in order to soften the right angled sides of its continuous edge in order to produce a rounded edge, would this not be akin to a rolled tone hole? There's a danger he could overdo it and put a dip into part of the edge on the hole but this is unlikely. Other than that, it's a rather unscientific method unless a CNC machine was doing the polishing. What do you think? It would help stop the standard hole's edges "cutting" into the pad.

 

[DavidUK]

On a side note, I wouldn't keep any horn I valued in a Berkeley case. They're simply a shell, and offer as much knock-resistance as an egg in a jam jar.

Anyone have a cheap alternative as a solution? The Berkeley (once the detatched clasp is fixed) might sell for £30-50. What is there in this price range? 2nd hand fine - may suit the vintage better!

 

[milandro]

the “ blades" of my Super 20 don’t shred the pads............even after the re padding with white Roo (® ;} ) pads, which some Cassandras said would be reduced to shreds in months, are still going strong after two years and counting

I have seen the Berkleys for tenor being sold for 75€, I have sold a Conn NW tenor with it, they fit also horns which wouldn’t normally fit in other cases, and yes m they are not very protetive

 

[Stephen Howard]

Steve, a question about re-padding, polishing, and tone holes....

If I'm correct, rolled tone holes are kinder to pads due to the rounded top to the tone hole edge - the "rolled" bit.
Bevelled tone holes seem to be the contrary, like blades sticking into the pads, but maybe a smaller contact area so better for some reason I can't fathom.

It's all to do with pounds per square inch. You have a force of, say, two ounces pressing down on the key (and thus the pad), and that force will be distributed over the surface of the tone hole. With a smaller surface area the pressure in any one place will be greater than that over a larger surface area.

Standard tone holes have an edge which is squared off, and digs into the pad with its two right angled sides. Better to my mind than bevelled, not so good as rolled.

Ideally a standard tone hole should have a rounded rim - in practice this usually ends up as a sort of rounded bevel, which is good enough. A properly square edge is likely to cause problems with pad wear and/or sticking.

Question: If my metal polisher was to run his polishing mop over a standard "square" tone hole in order to soften the right angled sides of its continuous edge in order to produce a rounded edge, would this not be akin to a rolled tone hole? There's a danger he could overdo it and put a dip into part of the edge on the hole but this is unlikely. Other than that, it's a rather unscientific method unless a CNC machine was doing the polishing. What do you think? It would help stop the standard hole's edges "cutting" into the pad.

I would be very reluctant to allow any polisher to have at the tone holes, no matter how skilled they are (and some are very skilled). It's too imprecise - you have a wheel spinning at a few thousand RPM, a constantly variable pressure on the mop and a similarly variable amount of abrasive compound.
All it would take is one tiny mistake and you'd have an over-thinned tone hole rim.
It's far better to dress the rims by hand.
There's also some merit in having a very slightly matt finish to the rims to counter adhesion.

 

[DavidUK]

It's far better to dress the rims by hand.
There's also some merit in having a very slightly matt finish to the rims to counter adhesion.

What method and materials would you use to lightly dress the rims and to leave a matt finish to this dressing?
Thanks for your advice, it's invaluable.

 

[Stephen Howard]

What method and materials would you use to lightly dress the rims and to leave a matt finish to this dressing?
Thanks for your advice, it's invaluable.

For a home job I'd advise using various grades of carborundum paper, starting with, say, 600 grit for taking the edge off the rims followed by successively finer grades to bring out a smooth finish. You can finish up with 0000 gauge wire wool followed by Duraglit...and then go lightly over the tops with used 800 grit.
I'm assuming though that the tone holes are level.

I make use of a foam-backed abrasive - got it from Jason at Windcraft. I don't know if it's widely available but it's excellent for finishing tone holes as it moulds itself around the rims.

A more fussier method is to use blocks of hard felt wetted with suitable grades of fine grinding pastes. These will put a superb profile and finish on the rims.

 

[DavidUK]

For a home job I'd advise using various grades of carborundum paper, starting with, say, 600 grit for taking the edge off the rims followed by successively finer grades to bring out a smooth finish. You can finish up with 0000 gauge wire wool followed by Duraglit...and then go lightly over the tops with used 800 grit.
I'm assuming though that the tone holes are level.

I make use of a foam-backed abrasive - got it from Jason at Windcraft. I don't know if it's widely available but it's excellent for finishing tone holes as it moulds itself around the rims.

A more fussier method is to use blocks of hard felt wetted with suitable grades of fine grinding pastes. These will put a superb profile and finish on the rims.

I have all those items so will give it a go once the sax is stripped. Hmmm... before or after it's been to the polishers?

As for Plus Gas, Google leads me to a product called "Shock & Unlock" at Halfords: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/...ormanceHorizon-_-skimlinks_phg-_-TopLink#tab1

Reviews variable. Data Sheet: http://www.my-sds.co.uk/(F(9MDpAz43...ingID=1&MasterCompanyID=211&primaryReportId=0

Other than this, looks like I'll have to order some off eBay rather than walk in somewhere today.

Still can't get the MP off. Tried freezing the crook... no good. Tried WD40... no good.