Saxophones Selmer Supreme alto (quick look)

[PiccoloPirate]

Leaving the factory with toneholes not level, return for refund.
They can replace it with a different one made right.

 

[r. giuseppe]

They can replace it with a different one made right.

Can they? That’s the question this whole story boils down to.
How often does a 20k solid silver horn leave their factory and is this one an outlier or just normal? That’s the question.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Can they? That’s the question this whole story boils down to.
How often does a 20k solid silver horn leave their factory and is this one an outlier or just normal? That’s the question.

Well some manufacturers can - and I've seen better precision on other Selmers.
But yes - time will tell if this one was an outlier.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Didn't Glen Miller play trombone? 🤔

 

[BalancedReaction]

Didn't Glen Miller play trombone? 🤔

I think that was the point, that an investor couldn't even distinguish between instruments.

 

[Ghr9204]

I'm not saying that Selmer sit atop the pile as making the best instruments, merely that most top pros are probably playing them and that's the players that will get their comments repeated all over t'internet. Perhaps most of them are still playing Mk6's.

The future seems a bit muddied by today's streaming where players don't seem to receive their fair share of royalties, emphasis to do away with real players by expanding A.I., schools in US discontinuing band programmes for academic college preparatory with students being graduated who can't even balance a cheque book nor write in organised paragraphs, with less newer instrument repair techs to backfill the older ones as they retire and leave the industry.

Seems there have been changes to pricing models solely for profit during company takeovers versus promotion of the arts. The escallated pricing of certain "pro" models in their various finishes seem to follow this philosophy. These have not helped.

Is that still true once all of the top players aged 60+ are gone ? Don't know. But haven't yet seen a top player playing a Supreme, and not many on series 3 etc. Perhaps it's more true in the classical list of players, but I somehow doubt it.

As a "hobbyist player" in my 60's, I was still quite active. Since passing 70 I've slowed down a little. (Changed over to getting G.A.S.ed, eh, @JayeNM ?) 😉 Perhaps the old Army song, "Old Soldiers Never Die, they just fade away" has some truth.

 

[Ghr9204]

And on second thought, now that I see the detachable neck, I ain't goin' near it. Those connections always feel flimsy in my hands. God forbid I bend one...

I think that move was to garner further sales by expanding the market. Most clarinet players wouldn't feel comfortable learning sax by buying a sop that came without a neck. 😉

 

[Ghr9204]

Here’s why, in my opinion. The upper level management and owners do not care if the instruments are any good or not. They only care if they sell enough of them to make a tidy profit and keep the company growing. This attitude carries down to the actual people who make the instruments. Those people may in fact care if the instruments are any good, but they sense the pressure to produce more and thus cut corners.

Back in the late 1960's, the traditional suppliers of musical instruments had a wake up call. Yamaha showing up on the scene in the late 1960's had better quality control. Their instruments played better out of the box than other manufacturers. @helen earlier expressed that when she taught school band, with Yamaha instruments, the teacher could concentrate on the student's playing versus sorting out instrument problems.

I don't know specifically. My LeBlanc Vito (I) clarinet of the mid 1960's played but was a quarter tone sharp in the throat register.

Perhaps Yamaha quality forced other manufacturers to do better?

In the mid-1980's an Army Reserve Band issued me a brand new still wrapped in plastic Selmer Bundy Bb soprano clarinet in Resonite. It was easy blowing, played very well in tune, even better than my Buffet-Crampon R13 pro model Grenadilla wood clarinet I was issued with an active band in the early 1970's.

Perhaps it is time for another wake-up call?

I think it's worth differentiating between playing right out of the box and being 100%.

Most new horns work. You can blow all the way down to the Bb without too much effort. If there are any issues that prevent that it's more than likely there's something out of regulation (usually the G#). Fresh supple pads will readily take up most tonehole anomalies. So let's say that puts the horn at around 90-95% working. Plenty of player out there doing gigs on horns that are working less well than that.

That extra 5-10% adds a great deal of reliability in the long term and an appreciable improvement in both the feel and response of the horn. That in turn adds a sort of 'transparency' to it - nothing gets it the way. No uneven finger pressure needed, no slightly iffy notes, no hints of instability.

I think your reasoning explains why it seems many pro's continue to play older instruments that still have quite a bit of life left in them. You take them from being good instruments to excellent instruments by fixing their faults during servicing. Then they play even better and even IMO easier to repair during next servicing.

Even though out-of-print, I have purchased both your Clymer books on saxophones and clarinets. Kept searching the 'net until I found sources offering them at reasonable cost.

 

[r. giuseppe]

Perhaps it is time for another wake-up call?

Absolutely! And it’s already happening.

I had my wake up call recently when I tried a friend’s ETS 852, who was considering selling it after finding a very nice Mark VI.

And although I had @Stephen Howard ’s review about the first version of the Eastman 52nd street tenor in mind with its tone hole issues, and although I never bought a Chinese instrument so far, it was so good that I just bought it despite having enough tenors. For my taste they pretty much nailed it, and I am willing to annoy and pay my tech to fix whatever issues will come up to keep it going like this. My current feeling is it may not turn out too bad in the end. And I haven’t had this feeling that I just want to have it with a Selmer for quite a while…
Just realized that’s pretty off-topic - sorry for that.

 

[Ghr9204]

Absolutely! And it’s already happening.

I had my wake up call recently when I tried a friend’s ETS 852, who was considering selling it after finding a very nice Mark VI.

And although I had @Stephen Howard ’s review about the first version of the Eastman 52nd street tenor in mind with its tone hole issues, and although I never bought a Chinese instrument so far, it was so good that I just bought it despite having enough tenors. For my taste they pretty much nailed it, and I am willing to annoy and pay my tech to fix whatever issues will come up to keep it going like this. My current feeling is it may not turn out too bad in the end. And I haven’t had this feeling that I just want to have it with a Selmer for quite a while…

There have been other wake-up calls with other players, some pro's here in the Café, who have recommended other brands as competent instruments yet at an affordable price.

I interpret these extreme price hikes with lack of concern over quality control as the upper crust expecting us to support their lifestyle whereas it ought to be them supporting the buyer, supporting the art. In the past manufacturers have done that and they still made a tidy profit.

Just realized that’s pretty off-topic - sorry for that.

I did not read your points as that. The pricing escallation especially with little concern over quality control has instigated buyer resistance seeking other brands / models / used instruments.

 

[r. giuseppe]

Agreed, there must be a certain lack of concern of the buyer, but we all know pressure can easily cause lack of concern of whatsoever.
I have two more thoughts here. First that Selmer Paris has been said to have been in trouble when they “agreed” to have an investor. I don’t know if the problem was the high cost of European manufacturing, dropping sales or other reasons within the company. This leaves the question if the current prices well above the competition’s just reflect European production costs or if they are calculated to compensate for diminished market share, following the marketing idea that the targeted customers who still want a Selmer will also just pay more. I have no idea how Selmer as a company is actually doing. Why does it matter? Because to me as a potential buyer it would make a big difference if the higher price goes into a real stabilisation of one of the most innovative sax makers of the last 100 years, or if it goes into the profit of investors with the company falling apart after being sold.

Second, the Eastman gives me the impression that the Chinese sax manufacturers listened. Since maybe the 1990ies a significant portion of sax players (the “vintage oriented”) asked for horns with sound and feel of the great vintage horns, with a lightweight and slick keywork. Manufacturers told us this is not possible when at the same time modern demands for a sax have to be met. So we got sax after sax with more accurate intonation, more homogeneous sound, more keywork, sometimes things like C sharp compensations, high f sharp, high g, most of them feeling heavier, many of them giving a rather closed blowing feeling, sometimes even stuffy, and what I would call a rather small sound, lacking the warmth and broadness of the great vintages. Selmer went so far stamping “Reference (your favourite vintage)” on horns that to my feeling had something of a facelift Series II or III. They actually must have believed we are just full of it and just want to show off something old when in reality “new is always better”. I believe they never considered that we are serious, that we actually want the feel and sound of a 10M or Super20 or SBA or Mark VI and would actually buy a new saxophone that goes more in this direction. Now I have to admit I haven’t tried many new horns in the last 25 years, so I may have missed others who listened. But with my Chinese horn I actually have the feeling that they seriously tried to go the way many players asked for and not only pretend. Of course there may be others, maybe even better ones. And I think it is a great development.

 

[Woodpad]

Except for one, all European and North American saxophone factories stopped making saxophones. In most cases because they made a loss in other cases because they could earn more making other things. Selmer is the last man standing.
The story of the silver eagle saxophone learns us that you have to pay a hefty price for that. Selmer uses a lot of emotional marketing to keep the consumer price up. When you compare that to the Jupiter marketing concept of: we make saxophones how many do you need? You can see a difference in attitude.
There is a lot of pride in being the last man standing. I even reconsider to read pride and prejudice, but I still have this fear that the title is better than the book.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Except for one, all European and North American saxophone factories stopped making saxophones.

There’s also

Amati
Rampone & Cazzani
Inderbinen

 

[Woodpad]

There’s also

Amati
Rampone & Cazzani
Inderbinen

Thanks, I wrote this after breakfast. Clearly too early for me.

 

[Pete Effamy]

There’s also

Amati
Rampone & Cazzani
Inderbinen

Shame that nobody did the relevant research on words before naming the last saxophone maker on the list.

 

[Stephen Howard]

And although I had @Stephen Howard ’s review about the first version of the Eastman 52nd street tenor in mind with its tone hole issues, and although I never bought a Chinese instrument so far, it was so good that I just bought it despite having enough tenors. For my taste they pretty much nailed it, and I am willing to annoy and pay my tech to fix whatever issues will come up to keep it going like this. My current feeling is it may not turn out too bad in the end. And I haven’t had this feeling that I just want to have it with a Selmer for quite a while…
Just realized that’s pretty off-topic - sorry for that.

Aside from the toneholes issue the Eastman's a nice horn - and if buying used it's much less of a kick in the teeth to fork out for someone to put it right. And it's very much worth doing - it makes such a difference to the way the horn will respond.

 

[rhysonsax]

Don't Keilwerth make any saxes in Europe any more ?

And are you sure that Amati make saxes in Europe at the moment ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

Don't Keilwerth make any saxes in Europe any more ?

I just put down the first three that popped into my head.

I haven't heard that they don't

And are you sure that Amati make saxes in Europe at the moment ?

Likewise:

AMATI instruments, designed and produced exclusively at our European factory, are esteemed around the world. As a premium export of the Czech Republic, we are very proud of the tradition and perfection with which we produce instruments.

 

[rhysonsax]

I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that Amati saxes are now all made in Asia although their brasswinds are made in Czech.

Not sure if that really is the case so I will do some more research.

Rhys

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Always wanted an Alto Sax made of silver or grenadilla.
Of course Selmer could make one correctly.
Would be nice to be at the factory, every day, while they made it.

A younger buddy was at the Seaplane factory, learning to fly, while they made his plane.
Back when his Dad and Uncle, were two of just a dozen or so American billionaires.
I designed a forward camera mount, for the nose, so he could take/make movies.