Introduction saxual abuse?

[harmonix]

Hi foks, new here. Found your forum while browsing the web for a Berg Larsen mouthpiece and a henway for my tenor. (not endearing to the wallet, I must confess)
Have been playing on & off (mostly off) for ....uhm. twenty years? Never studied music, can't read a lick, so would, on a good day, be generously referred to as a busker, have been referred to in more robust and colouful terms as well, strangely and inexplicably more often by my better half, but no doubt this is a family forum, so we'll not dally on that topic too much. Did some time with a rock&roll outfit, pub gigs (if I have to play "Baker street" one more time I'll have a complete and utter stroke), and occasionally happy jazz sit-ins (some truly memorable disasters too).

Have decided that seeing as I'm not going to get a chance to come back and do it all again, I'm going to actually learn to read music, develop some serious technique :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

ok, wait. Let me try again.......
No, sorry, it's hopeless. I can't possibly say that without laughing til I cry.

I definitely DO want to tackle some serious music jazz-wise, have a roaring bit of fun with some funk, and get loaded screaming abuse at the world in general while being shoe-horned into my coffin.

 

[harmonix]

Oh yeah, Pete? I was looking for the said mouthpiece and came across one which offered excellent subtones, so I did a search in google for "saxophone subtones" to see if I could find a description for what a subtone is, how it's done, does it hurt, and are there any fiscal or geo-political repercussions. (or whether I was doing it already.)

Great, great forum and website, by the way. Very heartwarming to find so many people that love their art and their horns so much.

 

[griff136]

Hi Harmonix and welcome.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hi harmonix and welcome. Good luck with the music reading.

 

[ken]

Hello harmonix, welcome to the forum. Already enjoying your posts.

BTW: "For me", it is really interesting when someone like yourself (experienced) raises topics on sax 'sounds' etc. It makes me feel better (as a beginner) that I'm not missing out on these finer points purely because I'm thick!

 

[harmonix]

Hi fellas, thanks for the welcome!

But, (and this is just my opinion, after having to make do with a mixture of ancient reeds, donated reeds with consistency varying between that of a paper bag to a surfboard)

F'rinstance the mouthpiece that you already have is pretty much capable of producing an approximation of the tone you'd be aspiring to. there are two things that I find affect this mainly:
1) the hardness of the reed
2) the position of the mouth.

A softer reed played gently can produce a very mellow, relaxed sound.
A harder reed can produce a more robust, brassy sound

And then there's that really difficult to explain variable, being your mouth position. The more mouthpiece you have in your mouth, the more of a honky, braying sound you'd get, sometimes to the extent where, if you're playing a romantic little soliloquay to your flame of choice, she would feel like she's being barked at by a virile and somewhat enraged goat that's trying to love the flannel from her leg.

On the other hand, less mouthpiece in your mouth can produce a subtler, more gentle sound. This can also go to other other extreme where the sound becomes almost intoned and almost somewhat strangled. This is also another, newer realm where squeaks can be found. Many a pleasant hour can be spent scraing the living daylights out of your cats, dogs, and can cause small birds to spontaneously fly into tree-trunks.

Try different strength reeds, prepare them each, and play them each for a good bit of time, experimenting with changing your mouth position slightly inwards or outwards.


I personally think things like overtones and subtones are possible on all mouthpieces, it just a matter of a careful combination of reed and mouth usage. The problem I found, was that although the softer reeds are easier to play, and have an intimate sound, they're difficult to play live, unmiked, and in a band/pub situation, and eventually your embouchure just "lets go" and your top lip start flapping uncontrollably over your nose.

Harder reeds need more wind force, and a tighter embouchure, so if you're practicing at home, the world at large generally knows all about it too. Softer reeds can almost talk to you. Harder reeds, well..

But like you say, the debate can rage on...

 

[DaveW]

Welcome to the forum Harmonix, you and Ken will get along well 🙂 , like Ken, I like your style 8)

Thanks for answering Ken's question on mpc's and reeds, at least I could understand your answer , and thanks to Ken for asking.

I have just moved from the no-name mpc that came with my inexpensive Chinese tenor and 1.5 reeds to a s/h Yammy 5C and 2.5 reeds and notice the difference in attempting to produce notes - I like the soft mellow tone.

I am now getting a lot of air on the low notes, something I trying to figure out how to get rid of, and I have yet to master tonguing.

BTW I am more of a beginner than Ken is, despite what Ken might have you believe 😉

 

[harmonix]

Hey Dave, thanks, I was a bit worried I was too wordy there. I'm sure there are countless other folks here who can explain better, more technically, and have the degrees to prove it. Like yourself, I classify myself as a beginner again, having recently discovered that someone had stolen my saxophonists fingers and replaced them with a perfectly matching set of pork sausages. I can't even remember the scales! (Hell, who'm I kidding: I can barely remember my NAME)
I'm not 100% clear on which mouthpiece you're getting the mellow tone?

If your tone is somewhat breathy, try moving the reed forward toward the tip a tiny bit, and see if it's any better. If you start getting squeaks, you've gone too far.

Try blowing long, low notes, while tightening and loosening your embouchure and listening to the sound and feeling the vibrations of the reed. I can't explain it, but you'll feel a "sweet spot", where the amount of air delivery and the amount of tension on the reed are just right.

I'm sure there's a scientific explanation, but I think the more you play, the more your instinct guides you. And there's no doubt that there can be only one driver, so as much as anyone can give an opinion, you'll find your own truth by practice. 😉

 

[Paul_Dennis]

Hi Harmonix, Hi Ken, and Dave W....this is an interesting discussion and one I'm always returning to in my own playing. We all seem to be searching for an ever elusive tonal concept that is in our head, but somehow we never seem to hear in our own playing. Most of us have a collection of mouthpieces, have experimented with reeds (different manufacturers and strengths etc.)

From my own expereince, the first thing I'd say is try and record yourself as soon as possible. I'm constantly amazed that what I perceive (a combination of hearing and feel through vibrations presumeably through my upper teeth, jaw etc.) and what I hear when I record myself are very different. We all hate the sound of our own voices when we hear them recorded. I often find the converse when listening to the sax. The first time I heard a recording of myself I wondered who it was who was playing because it sure sounded better than my own perception of my own tone! You can get some idea by playing out into a room and then turning round and playing against the wall. Against the wall you'll have a better idea of what you sound like.

The second point is there is no substitute for long notes, and long notes and more long notes. Every practise session start with 5 to 10 minutes of long notes. Make sure your throat is open and that your playing is well supported with air from your diaphragm. At the same time you must listen very carefully to your tone, try and be aware of your body and throat, your embouchure etc. It's very important, particulalry in the upper registers not to 'squeeze' the reed. I know from when I first learnt, and from teaching beginners that it is very tempting as we move up the scale to use ever firmer pressure on the reed to make the higher notes sing out. A BIG mistake....the notes need to be supported by air and not through squeezing the reed. All we achieve by this is to sharpen notes in the higher register. How do we compensate? Yes...we all pull the mouthpiece off a little and then damn it the lower register is flat and our attempts at 'lipping' up the notes result in playing the first overtone (another subject!) I know from experience it takes a long time to break bad habits and rebuild a good technique.

An interesting experiment is to blow, whilst fingering something in the middle, say A, with a very loose embouchure. All that should happen is air will pass through the sax. Gradually increase pressure, using your lower lip, on the reed and at a critical point the note will sound. Increase this a fraction more so that the note is clear and stable. This should be about the right pressure needed for your particular m/p - reed combination.

I guess it's like Harmonix says...there can only be one driver and we all need to experiment and find the truth that is right for us. But one constant is long tones....(then you can extend this to overtones.)

 

[harmonix]

Hey Paul, that's really opening a train of thought there. I agree with you 100%, and it is a swine to unlearn bad habits. What gets me is the sound and tone guys like Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman and Sonny Rollins get. Being a teacher, I think you've probably thought about this quite a lot, and suffered quite a lot of back-and-forth about it too.
I believe Bird played with a real tight embouchure (closed mouth, just on the tip of the mouthpiece), a fist of control over his horn. And that's what made Bird sound like, no, rephrase, that's what contributed largely to his tone. Sonny Rollins is of the more "open" blowing tone (looser mouth, bigger bite on the mouthpiece), and again has a distinctitive blare of his own. (I'm not criticising either though, just by way of comparative description). Take a look at their faces in the photos, look at the jaws, etc.
Ben Webster/Lester Young would've employed a fair bit of bend in their techniques as well. I think probably getting the notes and tones "straight" first is the beginning of all things, and then after that your own particular tone, or clench starts to automatically manifest itself.
But man, I can see why the debate rages on this issue. Everyone has their instinct about the root of the tone, and advocates firmly whether it be reed/mouthpiece/horn/whatever. I guess I just gave away what MY particular thoughts on the issue are.... >.<

 

[tengu01]

Hey Paul and Harmonix,

Am in full agreement about the difficulty of unlearning bad habits. At the moment, I am struggling with not biting/pinching to hit the high notes and not letting my fingers fly off the keys while playing.

I had an idea of what I find to be a beautiful sax sound. Then I heard myself on a recording. Not quite what I was expecting >.<

However, I have (eventually) also come to the realisation that, like my voice, my sax is going to sound a lot like....well....my sax. There are many sax players whose sound I really like. On tenor, I adore Joshua Redman's tone. I also adore Dexter Gordon. On the other hand, I am also a big fan of Michael Brecker. They all sound different.

The lesson I am taking away from this is that if I work on developing a good strong tone through long tones and articulation exercises, I will end up sounding as I am going to end up. I might not sound exactly like my idols, but I hope to have a good sax sound that works for me.


Not there yet mind you, but working on it 😉

And now a question for all y'all people - as your playing has developed, has anyone noticed their sax voice becoming different?

I don't mean bum notes or playing in tune, but the fundamental sound of your sax i.e. which allows you to differentiate between Kenny Garrett and Charlie Parker after a few notes

 

[billy_glass]

hi harmonix and welcome from a new member, i play the mouthpiece and reed that came with the sax, thats how much i know on the subject 🙂
cheers
billy

 

[Paul_Dennis]

Hey Harmonix and tenqu01 there's a great biography of Charlie Parker by Ross Russell. It's called Bird Lives!. The opening chapter details a back stage discussion between Dean Benedetti (the guy who gave up alto after listening to Charlie Parker and ended up recording and transcribing many of his solos) and Charlie Parker. Basically Charlie asks Dean to open up his sax case and check what reeds he has with him. They're Rico number 5!! He asks Dean to play the instrument and the poor guy can't get a note out. It should be remembered that Dean Benedetti was a professional alto player at one time! Parker then goes on to demonstrate to Dean Benedetti the immense strength of his stomach muscles and diaphrag, by asking Benedetti to punch him as hard as he can in the stomach. His fists just bounce off as though he were hitting a tight canvas sheet.

A strange story I grant you...but the point Parker was making is that you need to have great support of the air column from the diaphragm and if you have this you can then shape it, do what you like with it to control your sound.

Harmonix, you're right..Parker's embouchure must have been incredibly tight playing a number 5 reed.

Stick with it tenqu01....once we understand a technical problem we're up against then we're half way to solving it. It's great to try and develop a sound similar to our idols but even better to have a beautiful sound of our own.

Tenqu01 also your question about the sax voice changing is really interesting. I guess I don't know the answer to that and want to give it some thought. I'm trying to think of some great players and if I can remember any great change in their voice....have any others any suggestions?

 

[harmonix]

This's just absolutely superb! I'm amazed at how this topic has affected not only my thinking, but how it seems to cross every sax players mind, and at great length too.
Paul, I never knew all the details about Bird's experience with Benedetti, although I vividly recall the scene in the movie "Bird", where Benedetti drops his sax over the bridge into the river. (I've often felt that way myself) But that would definitely explain that iron embouchure. Of course, I guess it's impossible to detect the diaphragm support going on under the belt as it were. We're talking the realms of earth-moving equipment there! Thanks for clarifying that. I have never, ever, met a horn player that used a #5 reed! (trot into a cane field, lop off a chunk, slice, make good, bolt down onto a mouthpiece, and Bob's your uncle!)
tengu01, I've also noticed my tone has changed, and possibly because my listening tastes moved from Stan Getz/Zoot Sims to Tubby Hayes/Clifford Jordan/Jimmy Heath. Also at one point I was playing with a reed section, where the two Altos where incredibly LOUD, and it became a case of sink or swim.
I can tell you this though, I'm not happy with where it's gone. At this stage, I'm concentrating on finding my fingers again, and during the course of that, if I should make any positive adjustments to my tone, it's all good.
I think I'm going to take a leaf out of Billy's book though, and deal with the mouthpieces I have. I did a quick recap and tried changing through my mouthpieces. As I should've realised right from the start, with the original Selmer mouthpiece I had a far gentler, warmer sound. With the ebonite Larsen, more powerful, robust, and aggressive. How could I have wondered where my tone has gone??? I did it all on my very own!

and here, I have to stop and think. Try. and think. It's only taken me...10 years to realise this? If the lights dim in your neighbourhood, don't be alarmed. It's just me, trying to think.

This is unbelievable though. I signed up 2 days ago, and already I've learned something huge. Thanks guys, all of you. 😉

 

[Pete Thomas]

At 11:13:41 AM 22/05/06, harmonix wrote:
I have never, ever, met a horn player that used a #5 reed! (trot into a cane field, lop off a chunk, slice, make good, bolt down onto a mouthpiece, and Bob's your uncle!)

I have known a few, but there is no correlation between hard reeds and good playing, good embouchure or good diaphragm control.
Very early on in my saxophone playing beginner days I used quite hard (4) reeds, and have gradually worked towards softer ones (2.5 now).

In order to play softer reeds as loud as you can play hard reeds you need to work very hard at embouchure and diaphragm, but the result is worth it as once you have mastered getting the extra power from soft reeds, you have the advantage of extra versatility (not that everybody wants or needs that)

 

[Paul_Dennis]

Pete, I get the impression that there is still a large school of thought that you start out on a soft reed (say 1 1/2) and then move up to harder and harder reeds as your embouchure develops.

I progressed to #3 reeds and then a few years ago had major intestinal surgery and dropped back to 2 1/2 for both alto and tenor and have happily stuck with these.

I don't follow the set ups of players but seem to remember somewhere that such luminaries as Michael Brecker and David Sanborn play on quite soft reeds, perhaps even 1 1/2.

 

[Pete Thomas]

At 12:01:49 PM 22/05/06, Paul Dennis wrote:
Pete, I get the impression that there is still a large school of thought that you start out on a soft reed (say 1 1/2) and then move up to harder and harder reeds as your embouchure develops.

A very large school of thought and it's a question of choice. Some people like hard reeds, I just prefer softer ones and I advise anyone I talk to that its better, but I wouldn't go so far as to say its better for everyone. However if people use hard reeds to be loud, play higher or appear macho I would argue against that.

 

[Bobby G]

Just doing a bit of catching up here....

Hi Harmonix and welcome, also thanks for all this stuff - I too am what you might call a Busker but trying to relearn reading skills forgotten at the point where I stopped piano lessons as a result of discovering guitars and the demon rock'n'roll, and all this stuff in layman's terms is pretty close to what I've been going through on my own journey of saxophonic discovery. Cheers Bob

 

[harmonix]

Hi Bob, niceter meetcha. Yeah, this is a real journey of discovery to me. It's made me realise (through the grace of those trained, practised or more analytical) that I've possibly short-circuited an entire learning curve in and of itself. The point Pete and Paul illustrated here, essentially, is that there is just no substitute for practice.
I remember, years ago, I was playing in a pub with the old Selmer mouthpiece. It was noisy in there, and playing above the racket was really tough work. I changed to a Berg, which was far louder/more piercing to compensate for that. I wouldn't say it was a mistake as such, it was possibly just a lazy man's approach to a problem.
As Pete said, there was just more work involved in making myself heard with the mouthpiece I originally was using.
Cojones of brass and a cast-iron diaper. I'm glad I never aspired to a number 5, but was grateful enough when I could blow a melody in reasonable proximity, and could walk away more or less unscathed.
:whistle:

 

[visionari1]

Hello Harmonix,
This a late welcome, I enjoy your posts especially the old players info/discussions and general writing style, ya must be fast a typer.
Just goes to show, what you put comes out as in the horn and the breakfast room shows.
Cheers
visionari1 🙂 8)