Tech/maintenance Saxophone Mythbusters

[Targa]

Yes sugar 🙂

Jx

I've asked you not to call me that at work.

 

[Jeanette]

I've asked you not to call me that at work.

And since when did I do as you tell me! 🙂

Jx

 

[Targa]

And since when did I do as you tell me! 🙂

Jx

I did say 'ask' not 'tell', why do you always make me beg and grovel when we're out together in public?
(In private that's a different matter).

 

[richardr]

A true saxophone player will forge his or her own hook in an oven fuelled by nothing other than cedar wood, out of pure unobtainium.

What's wrong with baler twine?

 

[jbtsax]

All of this flirtatious behavior in my thread must stop immediately or I'm going to report you two to a moderator. Oh wait. 😳 . . . . .just carry on. 😛

 

[gladsaxisme]

This prompts me to ask a daft question: does the fact that the toneholes are raised from the main body of a sax make a positive contribution to the sound or is this a necessary evil, to provide seatings for pads which are flat while the sax body is round? To put it another way, how (if at all) would a sax play if it had metal "pads" that seated perfectly on holes in the sax body so that when closed, the pads would be internally flush with the body?

Wow a bit of deep thought going on there, it would be very complex to make a pad and cup to seal on a round tube I would imagine and to gain what who knows

 

[richardr]

Wow a bit of deep thought going on there, it would be very complex to make a pad and cup to seal on a round tube I would imagine and to gain what who knows

I had in mind a beveled seating, as on a poppet valve. I think that modern machining technology would make this practicable, although if would be a devil of a job for a tech to fix if it got damaged. Anyway, Dibbs says we need raised toneholes so the whole idea is pointless.

 

[thomsax]

Ligatures dramatically change tone. Hmm, not for me, at least. I have used metal, fabric and plastic ligs, and even on occasion in an emergency string and sticky tape. I've never noticed any difference in tone.

When I use diffferent Rovner ligature on my Rovner Deep-V mpc I get a differnt tone. Right now I use a Rovner Daniels. Less bright!

 

[nigeld]

I had in mind a beveled seating, as on a poppet valve. I think that modern machining technology would make this practicable, although if would be a devil of a job for a tech to fix if it got damaged. Anyway, Dibbs says we need raised toneholes so the whole idea is pointless

Bassoons have tone holes that are not flat, although they are not anything like as rounded as the holes would be if they were flush with the saxophone body. Basically bassoons have squidgy pads. (I think that's a technical term.)

 

[Tenor Viol]

Which cedar wood is better for jazz?

Lebanese of course - the blue glaucous colouring is essential for that classic blues sound

EDIT: apols I missed the end of without which it didn't make sense...

 

[jbtsax]

This prompts me to ask a daft question: does the fact that the toneholes are raised from the main body of a sax make a positive contribution to the sound or is this a necessary evil, to provide seatings for pads which are flat while the sax body is round? To put it another way, how (if at all) would a sax play if it had metal "pads" that seated perfectly on holes in the sax body so that when closed, the pads would be internally flush with the body?

You've raised a very interesting point. Most of the orchestral woodwinds and saxophones have what is called a "tonehole chimney". On the thicker bodied instruments such as clarinets, oboes, english horns, and bassoons the "tonehole chimney" is the space that goes through the wall of the body into the bore. On the thin walled woodwinds such as the flute, and saxophone the "tonehole chimney" extends from the body and is simply called the tonehole. The only woodwind I can think of that does not have tonehole chimneys would be the Irish tin whistle.

There has been a lot of study of the woodwind toneholes by acousticians including Arthur Benade. It is amazing how complex the math becomes just by introducing one tonehole into the mix---let alone 20 or more. Essentially each closed tonehole adds to the length and diameter of the body tube in addition to making the tube longer at that location, and the effect is cumulative as one travels toward the bell.

Setting aside the acoustics, just the mechanical challenge of having curved key cups of different sizes on different planes holding curved pads boggles the mind. If you ever invent such a saxophone, please don't as me to work on it. 😵

 

[kevgermany]

Problem with curved metal to metal pads is going to be noise. It'd be like having a tap dancer built into the sax.

 

[aldevis]

I have a job for jbt: a fair punishment for mentioning Benade.

Many people speak about "large bore" saxophones.
Time for our mythbuster to check:
Diameter at high F
Diameter at RH D#
Distance between the two.

 

[richardr]

Essentially each closed tonehole adds to the length and diameter of the body tube in addition to making the tube longer

It was this point that led me to ask the question: closing toneholes lengthens a tube but instead of being smooth-walled, it has lots of cylindrical indentations, the closed toneholes. What effect, if any, good or bad, do those closed toneholes have on the sound?
Kev's point about the clatter of valves against metal seatings rules out my idea, even if nothing else does, but if a tube without tonehole chimneys would in theory be a serious improvement on what we've got, we've got a whole raft of manufacturing technology of which Adolfe Sax could hardly have dreamed and it might be worth taking a fresh look at the possibilities.
My own guess (and I've asked my question from a position of complete ignorance) is that "tonehole chimneys" make a contribution to the sound of the saxophone. Take away the chimneys and you might get a different sound but it wouldn't be a saxophone as we know it. But that's only a guess.
I'm not asking for hours of research to answer my question - even if I get the answer I'm not going to start a smoothbore sax factory - but it's been a point of idle curiosity for me for a long time.
As an afterthought it occurs to me that one empirical experiment would be to see what sound a sax body without any toneholes at all produces. They have that article on display at Johnny Roadhouse Music in Manchester, an alto tube taken off the production line before the toneholes were formed. Next time I'm there I'll ask to play it, unless one of our more knowledgeable members beats me to it. Now I'm using a plastic reed, I don't visit Roadhouse's so often as I used to.

 

[ProfJames]

It was this point that led me to ask the question: closing toneholes lengthens a tube but instead of being smooth-walled, it has lots of cylindrical indentations, the closed toneholes. What effect, if any, good or bad, do those closed toneholes have on the sound?
Kev's point about the clatter of valves against metal seatings rules out my idea, even if nothing else does, but if a tube without tonehole chimneys would in theory be a serious improvement on what we've got, we've got a whole raft of manufacturing technology of which Adolfe Sax could hardly have dreamed and it might be worth taking a fresh look at the possibilities.
My own guess (and I've asked my question from a position of complete ignorance) is that "tonehole chimneys" make a contribution to the sound of the saxophone. Take away the chimneys and you might get a different sound but it wouldn't be a saxophone as we know it. But that's only a guess.
I'm not asking for hours of research to answer my question - even if I get the answer I'm not going to start a smoothbore sax factory - but it's been a point of idle curiosity for me for a long time.
As an afterthought it occurs to me that one empirical experiment would be to see what sound a sax body without any toneholes at all produces. They have that article on display at Johnny Roadhouse Music in Manchester, an alto tube taken off the production line before the toneholes were formed. Next time I'm there I'll ask to play it, unless one of our more knowledgeable members beats me to it. Now I'm using a plastic reed, I don't visit Roadhouse's so often as I used to.

You can buy the body - pre drilled - at sax.co.uk

 

[kevgermany]

As an afterthought it occurs to me that one empirical experiment would be to see what sound a sax body without any toneholes at all produces.

Sax.Co.UK were selling them not so long ago. Keyless sax. And there's at least one video on YouTube of one being played. Sounds just like a sax.

Remember the sound is not down to airflow, it's vibrations. And perturbations have a different effect.

 

[richardr]

Sounds just like a sax.

That answers my question completely. Thanks to all!

 

[kevgermany]

 

[Tenor Viol]

That answers my question completely. Thanks to all!

I dread to think of the maths that would be involved in analysing your proposition. You've got all the acoustics stuff, plus air-flows, perturbations, eddies. I'm sure a fluid dynamicist would take it on as a Ph.D challenge...

 

[thomsax]

My own guess (and I've asked my question from a position of complete ignorance) is that "tonehole chimneys" make a contribution to the sound of the saxophone. Take away the chimneys and you might get a different sound but it wouldn't be a saxophone as we know it. But that's only a guess.

Yes, and the softsoldered on toneholes on a Martin sax is one of the secrets to the special Martin sound.