Intonation Sax out of tune or just me?

[Jazzaferri]

Once you learn how to play simple tunes up to an octave on the mouthpiece alone you will find it simple to keep the same embouchure.

Once a players ears develop to a certain level they will play different intonations depending upon the harmony going on around. Sometimes a pure 3rd sometimes a tempered 3rd.

 

[6441]

Someone here mentioned playing with drones, not the ones that shoot at you, the ones that play along note you can play over.
There is a set available someone kindly made available online in an answer to one of my questions about tuning. Before I knew about the drones, I was playing over sine waves generated with Audacity. If you have Audacity, you can generate a pure tone on any note and to any length and play unison on them to see how that affects your ability to "tune into it". When I get downstairs to the man cave sound laboratory and studio, I'll generate a couple of tones you could try.

Here are three files for 30 seconds of Db, Eb, F concert: Dropbox - Café Saxophone - Simplify your life

 

[IGoddard]

Try this:

Play the mouthpiece alone and adjust your embouchure tightness to play a G concert. Then using that same embouchure put the mouthpiece on the neck and adjust the mouthpiece until the mouthpiece + neck produce an in tune E concert. Then assemble the saxophone and play F#2 with the same embouchure and airstream. What is the result?

All is in tune. The G on the mouthpiece was possibly the hardest note maintain.

 

[Tenor Viol]

I’ve posted about temperaments before and @Colin the Bear is right. We generally use a compromise tuning system called equal temperament which was invented so that a keyboard could play in any key. The down side is it’s slightly out of tune most of the time. In just intonation for example, Db is flatter than C#. Also, diatonic and chromatic semitones are not the same size....

 

[Nikki]

This all flew WAY over my head. The only cents I know of is in money terms. Lol
I’ve only known playing in tune by ear only but I do have a good ear for music and can instantly tell if a note is either sharp or flat.

 

[Nick Wyver]

It's all very well saying use your ears to achieve some measure of correct or just intonation but if you're playing with other folk who have no choice (Pianists, guitarists, etc.) then you have to use equal temperament.

 

[Ivan]

It's all very well saying use your ears to achieve some measure of correct or just intonation but if you're playing with other folk who have no choice (Pianists, guitarists, etc.) then you have to use equal temperament.

That is something I've pondered for a while

It seems that just temperament is more suited to ensemble playing. But bring in a piano as accompaniment and surely you and any other flexibly tuned instruments in the group have to equal the piano's equal temperament?

But what happens when the piano is vastly outnumbered in an orchestra @tenorviol?

 

[GCinCT]

It's all very well saying use your ears to achieve some measure of correct or just intonation but if you're playing with other folk who have no choice (Pianists, guitarists, etc.) then you have to use equal temperament.

That's an excellent point. I think that's why good ears and flexibility are so vital. You have to be able to adjust your intonation to the musicians you are playing with. One of the reasons why playing while staring at a tuner is detrimental to your intonation.

 

[jbtsax]

Playing in an ensemble, the most important tuning information is to lip the 3rd of a major chord down slightly, the 3rd of a minor chord up slightly, and the 7th of a dominant seventh chord down a bit. The rest usually takes care of itself.

Years ago there was a synthesizer like tuning training device where a given note was sounded and then a note above it on which the pitch could be adjusted up or down with a knob to tune the interval. Students were given the instruction to adjust the upper note until it sounded "right" to them. Supposedly it helped to develop listening skills without the distraction of blowing an instrument. There may be "apps" nowadays that do the same thing.

 

[U CAN CALL ME AL]

Being a ‘valleys’ boy and playing CBA in a Welsh music folk group I have learned a little about the Welsh triple harp. In the video posted below ( don’t watch it all unless you feel inclined ) go to about 2.-15m and listen carefully to the extra string this instrument employs. Strangely it refers directly to the Eb/D# being discussed in this thread!

 

[zaphoon]

... equal temperament which was invented so that a keyboard could play in any key.

Not sure that's quite right! It started with enharmonic equivalence of flats/sharps, which we today take as given, but are not the same at all. That gives us 12 tones per octave on any instrument, not just piano. Then the question is, how wrong should those tones be, because natural flats and sharps are simply not the same tones. Equal temperament is one, currently popular solution.

Sure, on some instruments (unfretted strings, trombone and human voice) it's easy to produce micro tones, but on most instruments, the tones are (mostly) predefined. Guitar, piano, organ, even saxophone all have a predifined tuning. Actually guitar, organ and sax even more than piano, as one can easily change tuning on a piano (just adjust the strings), while on guitar it's defined by fret spacing (constant), on organ by each pipe and on sax by hole spacing.

The point is, equal temperament applies to sax as much as it does to piano. It just happens that sax was invented after equal temperament was already established.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Not sure that's quite right! It started with enharmonic equivalence of flats/sharps, which we today take as given, but are not the same at all. That gives us 12 tones per octave on any instrument, not just piano. Then the question is, how wrong should those tones be, because natural flats and sharps are simply not the same tones. Equal temperament is one, currently popular solution.

Sure, on some instruments (unfretted strings, trombone and human voice) it's easy to produce micro tones, but on most instruments, the tones are (mostly) predefined. Guitar, piano, organ, even saxophone all have a predifined tuning. Actually guitar, organ and sax even more than piano, as one can easily change tuning on a piano (just adjust the strings), while on guitar it's defined by fret spacing (constant), on organ by each pipe and on sax by hole spacing.

The point is, equal temperament applies to sax as much as it does to piano. It just happens that sax was invented after equal temperament was already established.

This is a complex subject and rather more nuanced. My understanding (and I'm not a learnèd professor on the subject so I may well be wrong!) is that ET was developed primarily to enable keyboard instruments such as spinets, clavichords, harpsichords, and organs to be able to play more-or-less in tune in many keys, rather than in a narrow range of related keys. This is partly why you do not get much music in keys of more than 2 sharps/flats until late C17th.

The same concept also applies to fretted instruments. Although lutes and viols have moveable frets so tuning can be adjusted. And on both viols and lutes, 'splitting' double frets was one way of distinguishing say Db from C#.

Viols, lutes, and unfretted instruments (violin family) used 'just' intonation.

Singers can obviously adjust and we know that up until around 1900 trained singers were taught that diatonic semi-tones were narrower than chromatic ones (4/9 of a tone vs 5/9 of a semi-tone)

There were many temperaments in use such as Weckmeister, quarter comma mean tone, etc. for tuning keyboard instruments. Each temperament had its strengths and weaknesses.

ET was known and was one of the ones used. We know that JS Bach had his own particular way of tuning harpsichords and that it was not ET. His book of 48 preludes and fugues is for a 'well-tempered' keyboard, not an 'equal tempered' one. Well-tempered means that the tuning is euphonious in many keys, not in a narrow range of keys (e.g. core key +/- 2 sharps/flats).

ET enables you to play in any key without worrying about enharmonic equivalents so that Db = C# for example. The problem with ET is that major thirds in particular are much too wide and really are out of tune.

Woodwind players can adjust tuning on crucial notes if they wish e.g. by lipping up or down. As you say, modern wind instruments will have been built around ET.

 

[MandyH]

I always tune with my eyes closed!
I play a few scales, arpeggios etc to get the sax & my fingers warmed up.
I turn on the tuner and place it on my music stand right in front of me. I close my eyes and blow my Concert A until I’m happy with its sound, then I continue to blow exactly the same and open my eyes. ...
It seems to work every time!

 

[IGoddard]

I always tune with my eyes closed!
I play a few scales, arpeggios etc to get the sax & my fingers warmed up.
I turn on the tuner and place it on my music stand right in front of me. I close my eyes and blow my Concert A until I’m happy with its sound, then I continue to blow exactly the same and open my eyes. ...
It seems to work every time!

You have a good ear then! When i try it i can up to maybe 10 or cents flat/sharp!!

 

[GCinCT]

You have a good ear then! When i try it i can up to maybe 10 or cents flat/sharp!!

I tune with a reference pitch. Close my eyes, match the pitch, check it on the tuner. My ears and intonation have improved significantly since I started doing that.

 

[MandyH]

You have a good ear then! When i try it i can up to maybe 10 or cents flat/sharp!!

My ear has improved dramatically over the 10 years I have been playing sax.

With a sister who is a superb trumpet player (since a very young age) and secondary school music teacher, and a daughter with perfect pitch, I have always considered myself to be a poor musician!

But I (obviously) had a very high bar to try to compare myself to.

It is only (relatively) recently that I have come to appreciate, I am not a bad musician!
(I don't mean that as an arrogant comment, and I hope it doesn't come over as such)

 

[IGoddard]

My ear has improved dramatically over the 10 years I have been playing sax.

With a sister who is a superb trumpet player (since a very young age) and secondary school music teacher, and a daughter with perfect pitch, I have always considered myself to be a poor musician!

But I (obviously) had a very high bar to try to compare myself to.

It is only (relatively) recently that I have come to appreciate, I am not a bad musician!
(I don't mean that as an arrogant comment, and I hope it doesn't come over as such)

I know exactly what you mean. At 28 I consider myself somewhat late to the game and often expect things to come much quicker than they do in reality.

Being a perfectionist I often hate on my sound or throw out SOTM entries because I don’t like my sound, forgetting I’ve only been playing almost 2 years, 6 months on tenor!

 

[GCinCT]

It is only (relatively) recently that I have come to appreciate, I am not a bad musician!
(I don't mean that as an arrogant comment, and I hope it doesn't come over as such)

I find your comment to be quite humble.

 

[MandyH]

I know exactly what you mean. At 28 I consider myself somewhat late to the game and often expect things to come much quicker than they do in reality.

Being a perfectionist I often hate on my sound or throw out SOTM entries because I don’t like my sound, forgetting I’ve only been playing almost 2 years, 6 months on tenor!

I didn't start playing sax until I was 43!
my sister started trumpet at about age 8.
I have rather a lot of catching up to do.

As an example of her proficiency ... when we got married, I asked if she would be able to play "Clarke's Trumpet Voluntary" as I walked up the aisle. Her response:"yes, in any key!" 😵

I am simultaneously very proud of her, and very frustrated by her 😀

 

[GCinCT]

I know exactly what you mean. At 28 I consider myself somewhat late to the game and often expect things to come much quicker than they do in reality.

Being a perfectionist I often hate on my sound or throw out SOTM entries because I don’t like my sound, forgetting I’ve only been playing almost 2 years, 6 months on tenor!

I know how you feel. It's why I try to record myself once a month or so. I'm never completely happy with the way I sound and I'm always looking at the things I can't do yet. It helps to listen to past recordings and realize that I have improved and can now do things I once wished I could.