Intonation Sax out of tune or just me?

[IGoddard]

I’m not sure how long this has been going on but I’ve recently noticed that my F and Eb are very flat on my tenor. I’m talking 20-30 cents flat.
My D, E and F# are bang in tune. To get both notes in tune I’m having to dramatically adjust my embouchure, and even then often falling 5 cents flat.

Now I’m fairly sure this hasn’t always been the case but couldn’t say for certain. Is there a likely technical explanation for this?

 

[IGoddard]

I forgot to add. I’ve tried new teeds and mouthpiece, neither have been successful.

 

[Ne0Wolf7]

If it's just a few notes, it might be the heights on those keys.

 

[jbtsax]

D and E are typically sharp notes---especially the D. What is the tuning procedure you use? The low pitch of the Eb could be the result of the Eb key not opening far enough. Usually when this is the case, the note is stuffy as well. Generally speaking the F and F# are very close in pitch, but not always. There are times when "tuning" by adjusting the length of the saxophone is at best a "compromise".

 

[spike]

If it's just a few notes, it might be the heights on those keys.

Could be - but
Are you referring to the right hand stack or left hand palm keys ?

 

[IGoddard]

Could be - but
Are you referring to the right hand stack or left hand palm keys ?

No palm keys. The tuning issue is for the low and middle F and Eb.

 

[IGoddard]

D and E are typically sharp notes---especially the D. What is the tuning procedure you use? The low pitch of the Eb could be the result of the Eb key not opening far enough. Usually when this is the case, the note is stuffy as well. Generally speaking the F and F# are very close in pitch, but not always.

D has never been a sharp note for me but until recently the E was sharp by 10-15 cents, F and F# were always fine. I’m scratching my head as to what has changed.

I tune to concert A. But often check F# and D aswell as I find them to be stable notes on my tenor.

 

[JayeNM]

Soem questions:

1)...so are you saying 'it used to NOT be this way' ?
Or are you saying 'I just noticed this now' ?

2) If I understand correctly...F1 AND F2 are both flat ?
Are Eb1 and Eb2 therefore both flat ?

 

[Colin the Bear]

Bang on in tune is a fallacy with saxophone. Least far out is all we can manage most of the time. JBT's advice about tuning the horn to itself with harmonics sorted me out. Overblow the bell notes an 8ve, also a 12th and compare the normal fingerings for these notes, by ear. The tuner is misleading. When everything matches up as close as you can get it, that's the sweet spot. Play it there. Lip everything in. The subtle personality of each saxophone comes through its absurd intonation and the player battling this. Me and mine have a discussion every time about intonation. With some numbers I play in concert F, on alto, I need to pull out a midge to get tonic to sing.

 

[spike]

Check @jbtsax fix for the E flat - on my horn the E flat needs to be more open for a good sound and to be in tune.
As for the F - that right hand stack is or can be a complicated mechanism on some horns - check the corks for wear

 

[IGoddard]

Soem questions:

1)...so are you saying 'it used to NOT be this way' ?
Or are you saying 'I just noticed this now' ?

2) If I understand correctly...F1 AND F2 are both flat ?
Are Eb1 and Eb2 therefore both flat ?

Im 90% certain it’s not always been this way. I’ll often have a tuner open in the background whilst doing my long tones/overtones, that way I can glance over to see how I’m doing.

Both F1, F2, Eb1 and Eb2 are flat.

 

[IGoddard]

Bang on in tune is a fallacy with saxophone. Least far out is all we can manage most of the time. JBT's advice about tuning the horn to itself with harmonics sorted me out. Overblow the bell notes an 8ve, also a 12th and compare the normal fingerings for these notes, by ear. The tuner is misleading.

Why is a tuner misleading? If anything, I’d expect my ear to be misleading. Mainly as I don’t have much of an ear for the notes as yet, but to me the tuner can’t lie. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I will certainly give the overtone test a try.

Update- my Bb overtone for F2 is within a few cents of being bang on with a tuner. Revert to normal F2 fingering and it’s knocking on 30 cents flat!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Check bis is fully closing. Cork/felt touch pieces wear there.

Why is a tuner misleading? If anything, I’d expect my ear to be misleading. Mainly as I don’t have much of an ear for the notes as yet, but to me the tuner can’t lie. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I will certainly give the overtone test a try.

The tuner works on equal temperament. The octave split into 12 equal parts. True harmony or just intonation is slightly different. You'll hear viol players stating enharmonic notes are not the same pitch with a different name. You may be surprised how good your ear is. The tuner is ok for getting in the right area It will mislead you if you check every note.

This video clarified it for me.

View: https://youtu.be/6NlI4No3s0M

 

[IGoddard]

Check bis is fully closing. Cork/felt touch pieces wear there.

The low B key?

That video has blown my mind! I always noticed it said equal tempremant but never gave it a second thought.

 

[Colin the Bear]

The low B key?

No! Bis is the little pearl key between LH A and B. Alternative Bb.

 

[Targa]

What sort of tuner are you using?
I'd suggest checking the tuner against several tuning apps and note the results. Are they all the same, do they all show differences, if they do are the variations constant?.
Then delete the apps, throw the tuner in the bin and use your ears.

 

[jbtsax]

Try this:

Play the mouthpiece alone and adjust your embouchure tightness to play a G concert. Then using that same embouchure put the mouthpiece on the neck and adjust the mouthpiece until the mouthpiece + neck produce an in tune E concert. Then assemble the saxophone and play F#2 with the same embouchure and airstream. What is the result?

 

[Keep Blowing]

What sort of tuner are you using?
I'd suggest checking the tuner against several tuning apps and note the results. Are they all the same, do they all show differences, if they do are the variations constant?.
Then delete the apps, throw the tuner in the bin and use your ears.

I have mentioned this before, I have a well known tuner app on my phone and it isn't accurate

 

[BigMartin]

Then using that same embouchure ...

I've always found that part to be pretty well impossible. I can tell if tell it's roughly the same the same, but I dont think I can do it accurately just by feel.

 

[jbtsax]

I've always found that part to be pretty well impossible. I can tell if tell it's roughly the same the same, but I dont think I can do it accurately just by feel.

I don't have a problem making my embouchure "feel" the same going from the mouthpiece, to the mouthpiece + neck to the full saxophone. Of course there is the human element which makes perfect consistency impossible. That is why scientific studies use an "artificial embouchure" to remove that variable. In my view that degree of perfection is not necessary for the exercise I prescribed. 🙂