Beginner impro Relative minors

[mizmar]

finished on G for a start.

That's just one of those phrases...

Go on then, what was the piece?

 

[thomsax]

I had the same problem with a song I wanted to play on piano although it was the sheet music that was incorrectly labelled.

E minor scale: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E
G major scale: G, A, B, C, D, E. F#, C

If your read and play from charts E minor and G major sounds the same. For many years ago I ordered a horn arrangement in E major. The Bb horns were written in F# but the Eb was written in Db. Sharps or flats doesn't matter in this case. You are supposed to play it as it was written. But sometimes you must improvise even if you are supposed to play as it was written. How to play the tone low A on a baritone to low Bb? Buy/make an bell extension or pick another tone!?!?

If you order sheet music and it's in G major you should have the sheet music in G major.

If you try and find the original published key for a song it often varies on different sites annoyingly.

Original published key and original recorded key can be different. The music I like and play was often not written. Just chords and the sining lines/melody. Later they transcribed the song and started to sell sheet music/books. Listen and play along the original recording use to be the way I learn songs/solos/fillings .... . But I like to have the sheet music as well.

For backing music for the sax I usually pick youtube instrumentals-they have them for most of the songs I play.

Lot's of good backing tracks on YT. But I often hear YT version that are distorting the song. Wrong key, playing a minor song more like a major song ..... . I have always, more or less, used backing tracks or rhythm tracks. Started to play along records, jam taps (Compact Cassette with bad pitch and recording), Aebersold play-along, CD's with waw or MP3 ..... . I have some blues and rock backing tracks that a band recorded for me at the soundcheck before gigs. One version with sax. One version without sax. The jewels in the crown.

 

[Pete Effamy]

E minor scale: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E
G major scale: G, A, B, C, D, E. F#, C

This isn’t incorrect for E minor, but it isn’t “THE” E minor. As has been said already, the minor scale can take many forms and that is largely directed by where, or how it occurs in music, and what type of music.

The 6th and 7th degrees - in this case the C and D - could be natural or sharps. It depends. The “flattened” 6th and sharpened 6th could be used perfectly well within a few notes of one another.

It also depends upon whether the E minor is the Key chord, or whether it’s just part of the harmony from another key:

If it was part of a ii-v-i in D major (Em7-A7-D) then a lot of players would use a C# as all three chords are made up of notes from D major, and are functionally part of that key.

Being led by your ear is best.

 

[eb424]

What is it that doesn't work, I would have thought it would have been foolproof, someone else does the work and you just play, however whatever works for you is great.

A lot of the time there are no lyrics..I find having the lyrics good re tempo rhythm etc..the good thing re karaoke version is that for one price i can download one with vocals and one without. I play with vocals until i can navigate the song then remove them..tho sometimes like with REMs everybody hurts the starting point is in a different place..

 

[eb424]

This isn’t incorrect for E minor, but it isn’t “THE” E minor. As has been said already, the minor scale can take many forms and that is largely directed by where, or how it occurs in music, and what type of music.

The 6th and 7th degrees - in this case the C and D - could be natural or sharps. It depends. The “flattened” 6th and sharpened 6th could be used perfectly well within a few notes of one another.

It also depends upon whether the E minor is the Key chord, or whether it’s just part of the harmony from another key:

If it was part of a ii-v-i in D major (Em7-A7-D) then a lot of players would use a C# as all three chords are made up of notes from D major, and are functionally part of that key.

Being led by your ear is best.

Its weird..so as well as the music sheet you need a chordsheet..

 

[thomsax]

This isn’t incorrect for E minor, but it isn’t “THE” E minor. As has been said already, the minor scale can take many forms and that is largely directed by where, or how it occurs in music, and what type of music.

The 6th and 7th degrees - in this case the C and D - could be natural or sharps. It depends. The “flattened” 6th and sharpened 6th could be used perfectly well within a few notes of one another.

It also depends upon whether the E minor is the Key chord, or whether it’s just part of the harmony from another key:

If it was part of a ii-v-i in D major (Em7-A7-D) then a lot of players would use a C# as all three chords are made up of notes from D major, and are functionally part of that key.

Being led by your ear is best.

I stand corrected. Sorry if I have been misleading. I delete my post #82.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I stand corrected. Sorry if I have been misleading. I delete my post #82.

No, you weren’t wrong Thom, just not correct for every instance. Part of what makes music both wonderful and infuriating - there’s no definitive.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Its weird..so as well as the music sheet you need a chordsheet..

Chords above or below the music can be really helpful. There’s enough room on the main sheet music, a separate chord chard isn’t necessary.

It gives more information about the tune.

 

[Guenne]

Its weird..so as well as the music sheet you need a chordsheet..

Just listen to and analyse the melody of the song "Greensleeves".
Then everything minor becomes natural. Pardon. Melodic, harmonic and natural 🙂

 

[Pete Effamy]

Just listen to and analyse the melody of the song "Greensleeves".

Poor example imo as this melody can function with or without dominant chords (apart from the final v-I) and also flat or natural 6ths.

So in E minor it might have D#’s or not, save the last few notes of the A section. It may use C natural or C#.

It’s an amazing tune in this regard.

 

[Guenne]

It’s an amazing tune in this regard.

That's what I wanted to express.

Poor example

Poor joke it seems.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It's a good example but getting way beyond the scope/point of this thread, which is a beginner asking what is a relative minor.

 

[Pete Effamy]

It's a good example but getting way beyond the scope/point of this thread, which is a beginner asking what is a relative minor.

The more constrained it gets, the easier it is to grasp it.

In “classical theory” it tends to go more easily - “here’s a tune in the relative minor with mainly harmonic minor scales and possibly a melodic minor thrown in.”

No one asks “what about if I play the Blues scale over it” etc.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Just listen to and analyse the melody of the song "Greensleeves".
Then everything minor becomes natural. Pardon. Melodic, harmonic and natural 🙂

Sorry Guenne, I must have just read the first sentence and jumped in. I’m getting old….

 

[jools28]

That's just one of those phrases...

Go on then, what was the piece?

Actually can't remember as it was a few years ago and I used to play so many songs on piano (none of them well) but I'm trying to cut down and just stick to a few songs now. Sheet music is expensive as well. It didn't make any difference to how I played the song of course but the fact it was labelled as E minor confused me big time. I think it was after that I learnt some more theory though so it was useful in the end.

I just always assume it's me instead of trusting my own brain or ears. For example "The Scientist" by Coldplay is one of my fave covers to play on sax, but it always sounded slightly off and I couldn't figure out why. I thought it must just me somehow for that one song-it's not going to be an out of tune recording right? Just found out Chris Martin played it on a slightly out of tune piano and most of their album is off ever so slightly on purpose. And I was like "ahhh that explains it". At least it proved my ears are working and I must be somewhat in tune on the other songs. Going off topic a bit sorry but my point is that not everything follows the "rules" and you have to trust your ears as a PP said.

 

[thomsax]

No, you weren’t wrong Thom, just not correct for every instance. Part of what makes music both wonderful and infuriating - there’s no definitive.

For 30 years ago I could read music badly. I just played without knowing what I was doing. Then I met a a player that thought even a blues and rock&roll sax player should have some knowledge (theory) about the music we played. So my autodidact music theory journey started.

Here is a sample of questions I had when we were going to play the song "Unchain My Heart" (Ray Charles version):
- Was it a major or minor song? The song sound minor to me. But also major.
- Bb saxes charts in F#. Eb saxes in Bb. Concert key E major or C# minor.
- The Tenor solo over 12 bar:
/ A#- / A#- / A#- / A#- /
/ D#- / D#- / A#- / A#- /
/ F#7 / E#7 / A#- / A#- /

A#-, D#- ? Three tone chords. A#- (root) C# (minor third), F (perfect fifth) is the A#- chord a k a A# minor a k a A# min a k a A#m. I didn't knew a chord could have so many "names"

The dominant seventh chord we had covered on a RockSax workshop: "How to learn to love A and E".

A friend asked me/us to play at a small village/street festival in Denmark. The small wagon scene down in the hollow. We gladly accepted but we also realized that we had to learn some new songs as well. Blues -, Chuck Berry-, Stones songs are fine .... but some new songs as well. We decided to do "Unchain My Heart". We were going to solve a problem. The problem was to learn to play "Unchain My Heart" in concert E major or was it concert C# minor? The horn section was just saxes. The sax players have been honking together at our RockSax workshops. A four person rhythm section with the guitarist as singer. None of us had a musical education. But we all discovered that a soprano sax must hold back. This was not written on the paper. Our ears told us that.

Keep On Honking and solve problems.

 

[mrblackbat]

A#-, D#- ? Three tone chords. A#- (root) C# (minor third), F (perfect fifth) is the A#- chord

Well, A# C# and E# really.

 

[Nell]

Yep, you're right about F minor being the relative key to Ab major. If you find sheet music in F minor, you can transpose it up to G minor.