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Question:How do you play C/E chords?

lydian

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Guys, I just showed MM7, Mm7 and mm7 as the origins of the M7, 7 and m7 shorthand notations as per music theory classes that I took in the ice age.

I don't know where the M7 and m7 notation could have come from otherwise, other than short for MM7 and mm7. And that leaves 7 for Mm as not one of the above so no letter with it. Then mM or m(maj7) is the odd man out since it is far less common.
Like everyone else, I’ve never seen MM or mm in a chord symbol, and I’ve been playing out of fake books since the 70s. But I am genuinely interested in the origin and use of this strange notation and where one might come across it. If you find any examples, please post them.
 

AndyB

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Like everyone else, I’ve never seen MM or mm in a chord symbol, and I’ve been playing out of fake books since the 70s. But I am genuinely interested in the origin and use of this strange notation and where one might come across it. If you find any examples, please post them.
LOL. Let me try once more. You don't see MM or mm on lead sheets because there are convenient short-hand notations for them. But when you see C7 on a lead sheet what does it mean? Theoretically, it means an "M" triad with an "m" seventh added or Mm7, formally.

It's probably the same as why the words wood and food have 2 o's in them. Today we don't pronounce them both, unless you are from the north country. But once they had meaning to every English dialect. MM, mm and Mm don't have utility beyond the classroom but they might be the reason why we have M and m notation today.

All of my posts have been about why the "M7" notation for major 7 exists.
 

Pete Thomas

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MM7, Mm7 and mm7 as the origins of the M7, 7 and m7 shorthand notations as per music theory classes that I took in the ice age.
Aha, that makes sense that someone might have used those a teaching method, but I would doubt it was the origin of what we have, I think they just. TBH they are more logical in that they describe both the 3rd and the 7 as discrete degrees of the chord or scale, but they just look a bit clunky and as Imationed when written as opposed to typed, there can confusion.

Currently you mjust have to know that C7 is major 3rd minor 7. Which I belive may be counter intuitive to old school classical harmony theorists.
 

Pete Thomas

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MM, mm and Mm don't have utility beyond the classroom but they might be the reason why we have M and m notation today.
Makes sense. Like in the classroom you may have WWHWWWH for a scale, but it's purely for teaching, never used in notation.

So I do get your point about this.
 

lydian

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LOL. Let me try once more. You don't see MM or mm on lead sheets because there are convenient short-hand notations for them. But when you see C7 on a lead sheet what does it mean? Theoretically, it means an "M" triad with an "m" seventh added or Mm7, formally.

It's probably the same as why the words wood and food have 2 o's in them. Today we don't pronounce them both, unless you are from the north country. But once they had meaning to every English dialect. MM, mm and Mm don't have utility beyond the classroom but they might be the reason why we have M and m notation today.

All of my posts have been about why the "M7" notation for major 7 exists.
But a dominant 7th chord doesn’t have a minor 7th. It has a flat 7th. You might call that semantics. But there’s nothing “minor” about a V7 chord. Nobody would ever call a C7 a CMm7. Of all your permutations of this double m notation, the only one that actually exists is the mM7, at least as far as I’ve ever seen in my 50 years playing and reading music.

The symbol for a major triad is the root alone, no M suffix. Add an “m” or “min” or “-“ for a minor triad. A dominant 7, just adds “7”, not “Mm7”. I’d still be interested to see an actual example of this Mm, MM or mm being used.
 

AndyB

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But a dominant 7th chord doesn’t have a minor 7th. It has a flat 7th. You might call that semantics. But there’s nothing “minor” about a V7 chord. Nobody would ever call a C7 a CMm7. Of all your permutations of this double m notation, the only one that actually exists is the mM7, at least as far as I’ve ever seen in my 50 years playing and reading music.

The symbol for a major triad is the root alone, no M suffix. Add an “m” or “min” or “-“ for a minor triad. A dominant 7, just adds “7”, not “Mm7”. I’d still be interested to see an actual example of this Mm, MM or mm being used.
Look at the C7 chord. Between the 5th (G) and the b7th (Bb) is an interval of a minor 3rd, right?

So, the 2 letters in this notation system stand for the intervals between the root and the 3rd and the 5th and the 7th, respectively.

The first Google search I tried came up with examples of this notation system. Only the first is showing the degree of the 7th as a superscript. But the second from Carleton College Music 101 shows exactly what I've been describing. This may be outdated. I took music theory in 1977 I think but I had studied from even older books before then back to middle school.
pic3.PNG


And here:
pic4.PNG
 
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lydian

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Look at the C7 chord. Between the 5th (G) and the b7th (Bb) is an interval of a minor 3rd, right?

So, the 2 letters in this notation system stand for the intervals between the root and the 3rd and the 5th and the 7th, respectively.
That 5th to 7th interval notation is even harder for me to swallow. I’ll cut to the chase. I’m not convinced this usage exists. Can you post a real world use of mm, MM or Mm from a book or a lead sheet?
 

AndyB

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That 5th to 7th interval notation is even harder for me to swallow. I’ll cut to the chase. I’m not convinced this usage exists. Can you post a real world use of mm, MM or Mm from a book or a lead sheet?
Was doing so at the same time you were posting. Like I said, for all I know this method is no longer being taught, but this is how I learned it a long, long time ago.
 

Colin the Bear

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When I see mm I see millimetre. I don't think they use metric much over the "Pond". Sticking to Imperial is odd for a Democratic Republic.
So Cmm is eqivalent to C0.039".
I have no idea where I'm going with this but the G string I bought from ebay is chaffing, which serves me right for buying underwear from the music section.
 

lydian

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Was doing so at the same time you were posting. Like I said, for all I know this method is no longer being taught, but this is how I learned it a long, long time ago.
Thanks for those examples. The first one, mM7, I had already acknowledged seeing in common use. (I absolutely love the sound of the minor major 7th and use it in my own arrangements a lot). The second example is what I really wanted to see, so thanks for that. I’m going to do more research on that system.
 

AndyB

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Thanks for those examples. The first one, mM7, I had already acknowledged seeing in common use. (I absolutely love the sound of the minor major 7th and use it in my own arrangements a lot). The second example is what I really wanted to see, so thanks for that. I’m going to do more research on that system.
Ok. If you are going to research it further, I think I remember it being called tetrachord theory when I studied it. But it's been a very long time.
 

lydian

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I was just thinking about the mM7 and “In A Sentimental Mood” came to mind. Beautiful tune and great chord progression.
 

Pete Thomas

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But a dominant 7th chord doesn’t have a minor 7th.

In the key of C, I call the interval between C and Bb a minor 7. That's what I was taught but more importantly I think that is what textbooks say. I'll need to do some research and if I'm wrong I'll eat the hat I have ready for msuch purposes. It's quite tasty.
 

saxyjt

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Pfft! Howd'you expect me, or ME or mE, or anybody with an ounce of logic to dig any of that confusing stuff?

You can't even agree on how to spell that language. :doh:
 

saxyjt

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In the key of C, I call the interval between C and Bb a minor 7. That's what I was taught but more importantly I think that is what textbooks say. I'll need to do some research and if I'm wrong I'll eat the hat I have ready for msuch purposes. It's quite tasty.
msuch or Msuch or such7 or such+ ?

See, even more confusing...
 

lydian

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In the key of C, I call the interval between C and Bb a minor 7. That's what I was taught but more importantly I think that is what textbooks say. I'll need to do some research and if I'm wrong I'll eat the hat I have ready for msuch purposes. It's quite tasty.
I'll concede that point. Right you are. I just think using "minor" symbology to connote a dominant 7th chord would be very misleading. If I saw CMm7 instead of C7, by the time I figured out the meaning, the chord would have gone by and I would have missed it entirely. I certainly wouldn't recognize its function as the V chord. I have enough trouble with modern symbology as it is.

To be honest, when I improvise, I try to think very generally and in larger chunks. Beyond major, minor and dominant, I consider the other stuff color tones. I simply cannot think fast enough to comprehend more than that and still create a meaningful, melodic line.
 

Pete Thomas

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I just think using "minor" symbology to connote a dominant 7th chord would be very misleading. If I saw CMm7 instead of C7, by the time I figured out the meaning, the chord would have gone by and I would have missed it entirely.
I agree totally, but now realise that Andy wasn't proposing this as a system of chord symbols, rather it is a teaching method for analysis, and in that respect it does make sense as long as you realise that is what it is. In other words, we can think of the question:

What makes a C major 7 a C major 7?

The answer (provded you take the root asa given and the 5th as a given) is the major 3rd as well as the major 7. So I see how CMM7 does define that.

Of course te be pedantic we would inlude the perferct 5th and we'd get CMPM7.

But let's just leave that out there as a potential pedagogical method, and for playing we just stick with the convenetional symbols and an easy life :)
 

AndyB

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I agree totally, but now realise that Andy wasn't proposing this as a system of chord symbols, rather it is a teaching method for analysis, and in that respect it does make sense as long as you realise that is what it is. In other words, we can think of the question:

That and it's where I was exposed to the M7/m7 notation as a shorthand for MM7/mm7. And as PMason encountered, this notation system is still in use. That is unless you want to insist that FM7/A is Fmin7/A. But go to the keyboard and see how ugly that sounds. U-G-L-Y! :)
 

turf3

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Pete, that is how college-level music theory is (or was) taught here in the states.

C Major triad + natural 7th = CMM7 (or CM7 for short, sometimes C7M)
C Major triad + flat 7th = CMm7 (or C7 for short)
C Minor triad + natural 7th = CmM7
C Minor triad + flat 7th = Cmm7 (or Cm7 for short)

I still see it a lot in ASCII-format music lead sheets downloaded from the Internet.

But music schools such as Berklee probably use the jazz shorthand (delta and minus) today.
Well, I've been looking at lead sheets and sheet music with chords for close on to 45 years or so now, and some of those I've never seen.

CMM7 - never seen. C7M - never seen. Standard designations are CMaj7 or CM7 (the latter too easily mistaken for C min 7) and C-delta-7 (you know, the symbol).

CMm7 - never seen. The standard designation and I have never seen another one for the dominant 7th is C7.

CmM7 - I've never seen it with a lower case and upper case letter next to each other. Probably the most common thing I've seen is C- maj7, or maybe Cmin maj7. In the actual world this chord is rare enough that people usually aren't trying to save space, anyway.

Cmm7 - never seen that. Standard designations are Cm7, Cmin7, or C -7.

I don't know what they teach in your theory courses but on the actual real life bandstand reading charts and lead sheets that's what I've seen.
 

turf3

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But when you see C7 on a lead sheet what does it mean? Theoretically, it means an "M" triad with an "m" seventh added or Mm7, formally.
It means the dominant 7th chord, always does. I have never seen a different designation for that chord. You (or your idiosyncratic theory instructor) may have ginned up that Mm7 symbol in the interest of theoretical consistency (first one indicates the third, second indicates the seventh, I can understand the theory behind it) but it IS NOT USED IN THE REAL WORLD.

In the actual real world where musicians need to communicate chords quickly and unambiguously, it's called "C seventh" and it's written C7. Find me a commercially printed lead sheet, a hand written lead sheet written by an actual performing musician, or a commercially printed chart with solos, that uses CMm7 and I'll eat my hat.
 

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