Proper sax "setup" by a good technician - What does this mean?

[tengu01]

Hi all,

I have heard that certain brands and models of saxophone don't play well "out of the box" unless they've been properly 'set up' by a good technician.

Two questions:
Exactly what is involved in proper 'set-up' of a saxophone?

If you're buying a saxophone, how do you tell the difference between a horn where you know a good 'set up' will turn it into a monster horn and a horn you just don't get along with?

8|

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hopefully Griff will jump in and give some expert knowledge.

A well designed horn has to be put together properly and tested in the factory (even if not hand made). it is easy for factories to cut corners at this stage. There would be a difference if final adjustments (key heights, spring strenths) were done buy an unskilled production line worker using measurements as a guide, and a skilled player or at least skilled instrument tech who has a feel for what is right.

The former is probably what you get with cheap horns , but hopefully pro horns have a final tweak by someone skilled. This will mean checking key heights, spring strengths, checking for corks and felts about to drop off.

Selmer however have a bad rep these days for setting up, and Yamaha are beginning to.

Tha said many prop players would want there favourite tech to custom set these things anyway as they may have personal preferences. Also corks drop off and springs can break in transit.

 

[Paul_Dennis]

Good question tengu01! When looking for an alto many years ago a local dealer/repair man said he had a great Selmer in and would I like to try it. I couldn't get a useful note out of it.....it was leaking all over the place, had several pads that needed replacing and a lot of adjustment needed. He had the cheek to tell me that if I decided to buy it then he'd invest time and effort in the repair and set up! Needless to say I went elsewhere.

I don't understand why a saxophone doesn't play as it should when you receive it.....especially a bespoke instrument. Perhaps the more mass produced models that are sold through music shops, or ebay, and who have no specialist knowledge of saxophones might need some setting up.

As for setting up I guess there are issues with leaks, regulation and adjustment etc. that may need attending to. It's possible that some adjustments might have gone out through knocks in delivery etc.

Having said that I still don't understand why the instrument shouldn't paly as it should when recieved. I work with sophisticated analytical equipment and I expect it to work near out of the box after installation!

 

[griff136]

New saxophones, have to be checked over to make sure they are in top playing condition.

Some high end saxes (Selmer Paris being the biggest culprit - In My opinion) need the most adjustment so that they are playing well.

Most manufactures will test play their insturments which is fine however, a good player will be able to blow through any minor leaks. Ideally these firms should get a relative beginner to test them!

The problems that occur most on most new saxes straight out of the box could include (in no particular order)

Crook collar scratched and dirty.

Lack of or no lubrication.

leaking pads

sticky pads (due to either being wedged shut for transit and/or the materials used for waterproofing the leather.

loose crooks

too strong or too weak spring tensions

All the instruments in the shop I work for in london both new and secondhand commission sales go through the workshop and are thoroughly checked over before the customer sees them.

as far as saxes go I firstly check the mechanism to make sure there is no binding, then I solve the sticking pads, cork is then checked on each key to make sure that it is secure and there is no double action on the keys. The crook is then leak tested, the sax has a leak light put down it to check for leaks and any leaks rectified. The instrument is then lubricated and all screws rods are checked to ensure they are secure, and rollers are checked to make sure they roll freely.

As far as the shop is concerned, I check the case to makes sure the keys and locks work and that there is no damage. the saxes are checked for dents, scratches or any blemishes/runs in the lacquer.

Some retailers just sell the saxes straight from the box, some play test them, others give instruments a proper set up. Thats one reason how one sax can be cheaper than the same model somewhere else.

Also with the shop I work in, the instruments come with warranty, free insurance if the item costs over a certain amount which is most saxes. and a free Checkover at the end of year one.

I find that Yanagasawa and Yamaha, and to a lesser extent Jupiter tend to have their instruments, well packed and fairly well set up.

Selmers dont even arrive inside a case! Just a box with polystyrene inside it. If you want the case thats classed as an accessory and cost even more mula!

 

[wolfmaiden]

right!......and 'some' internet sites (which shall remain nameless for now), explicitely state that all 'pro' horns are sold with a full set-up from their tech department........(don't know if this has changed, as I don't go to their site anymore - once bitten, and all that) - then you discover this only applies to 'new' horns..........

- got badly burned by this one - ended up spending over $1000 cdn to make a horn in playable condition (just the cleaning was a nightmare!!....the neck alone was thick with yellow crud!.........one careful owner.......r-i-g-h-t......guess he needs penicillin!!) ........on top of the $500+ for taxes and shipping - figured out I'd have been better buying new from Selmer!!!
Great customer relations, eh???.....I only buy 'local' now.......WITH warranty........

Yet - my 'first' sax - an open box LASax 880 Tenor, from WWBW/Music123 was a great horn - no major issues (upper reg. a bit sharp, but then, as expected).......still in A1 shape!! (and 1/5 of the price of my Selmer Paris SA80II) - go figure!

Not bitter....just learned the hard way!

 

[paul_grant]

Hi all,
Got my first sax as a christmas pressi from my dear wife. Gear4music Alto.
After six months learning with teacher i'm beginning to think that this horn needs some proffesional tweaking. No scientific reasoning for this descision maybe its just the old adage of a poor tradesman blaming the tools but I Have decided to take it to the local repair man and see what he can do with it. One problem which has promted this action is the crook being very loose in the neck even when I fully tighten the adjustment screw. I don't know if this affects the performance or not but it is a pain in the proverbial.
Horn goes in tomorrow and I will keep you posted on the results
Paul

 

[griff136]

Hi Paul,

if you crook was loose from the start then chances are it was not looked at/checked over or at least not properly.

Loose crooks are not only a pain in the proverbial but also are a source for leaks. The crook needs to be held firmly in place all the way around the tenon.(the bit that fits into the collar). necks can feel tight but if they are not round then they can still leak.

you may find that once your neck fits correctly and your repairer has checked over the instrument, it should play a lot better.

 

[Bobby G]

A couple of questions; the crook of my tenor is very slightly loose i.e. it's not hard to move it, even when the neck screw is tightened right up. It's not exactly flapping about, or wobbly, but like I say it will rotate without a great deal of force being exerted on it. Is this a problem? I ask because the crook on my alto is pretty solid by comparison.

Also, my good old Antigua straight sop has a couple of key feet contacting the body and clonking (notably one or two palm keys and the Eb); there's clearly something missing on the foot, would this be cork or felt? Would it be something I could fix myself, or does the key travel have to be set to an exact measurement? It all works ok at the moment, it's just the clonking that's a bit off-putting, plus the Eb just feels like it's moving too far down.

Cheers, Bob

 

[paul_grant]

Hi griff,
Crook has never been right from the start, though not as bad as it is now.
I was certainly hoping that my horn will play better after the repairer has worked his magic.
Thanks to all for the input.
Paul

 

[griff136]

Hi Bob

the key feet on your antigua should have some cork attached to the bottom.

It is a job that can be done yourself.

the cork is attached to the foot using contact adhesive (evostick in the red tube) the glue needs to be put on both the bottom of the foot and the cork, let to go off for a couple of minutes until tacky then pressed together. you can trim the edges off afterwards with a razor blade. I would use some cork slightly thicker than an adjacent key and then once the cork is secure in place, place some sandpaper under the foot, grit side up, hold the key foot down onto the sandpaper and then draw the sanpaper out.

if you need some cork for this send me a private message with your addres and I'll pop some in the post.

Ideally you want to remove the key fron the instrument so that you can glue the cork and trim the edges then put it back on for final sanding.

re the neck/crook these should be tight enough so as to prevent the neck from moving at all.

you may want to try removing your neck screw, cleaning it and then applying some oil then screwing it up again. this may work.

let me know how you get on


🙂

 

[paul_grant]

Hi Griff,

What effect will be produced if the crook is loose? I know you said it could be a source for leaks, but how would this manifest itself?
Paul

 

[Bobby G]

Cheers for all that Griff. Re loose crooks - I tried what you suggested, it's still not as tight as it could be. An obvious remedy would be to somehow make the crook slightly bigger, or very slightly enlarge the slot in the top of the neck to allow it to close more tightly around the crook. Which is the 'proper' way of doing it? Would filing the neck slot a little cause damage, like for instance causing misalignment of the neck screw either side of the slot?

Cheers, Bob

 

[griff136]

HI Paul

If a neck tenon is not fitting correctly then air can move between the tenon and the reciever and usually escaping from the slit where the neck screw is located. Because of the position of the leak on the instrument this will usually manifest in sloppy response and the lower notes E,F,D etc suffering either by being forced up the octave ( the leak is inbetween the 2 octave pips after all) or squeaking or generally the lower notes would not be clear.


I must stress that a tight tenon is not necessarily a leak free tenon, the fit should be snug all round and from top to bottom of the tenon and the purpose of the screw is purely to hold the neck in place. A good fitting neck will be fairly snug and definately wobble free prior to the screw being tightened. IMHO the fit of the neck should be akin to the fit of a flute footjoint.

Bob,

I wouldn't advocate enlarging the slot in the neck, it wouldnt necessarily mean that the neck screw would be misaligned. What it will do though is create a larger gap exacerbating any minor leak in the neck tenon/reciever area.


Most loose neck tenons however need to be placed in a tenon expander used in conjunction with a shrinking tool/die to achieve the snug fit, some tenons need expanding throughout the whole of the tubes circumference some dont, some need expaning at the top and others at the bottom.

There is no one method of rectifying a loose neck. The nature of the looseness and the cause would have to be determined before choosing the right remedy.

 

[paul_grant]

Thanks for the info Griff.
Thats me been saxless for 12 hours. withdrawl symptons already.

Paul

 

[Bobby G]

Thanks again for the info Griff, reading your replies to Paul's posts has been useful too. The crook fits *fairly* snugly, but tightening the neck screw doesn't make as much difference as maybe it should. Also, as you suggest, my bottom notes can be a little flaky; I'd put that down to me, but it could be a small leak at the crook joint. The sort of thing that happens is that a low D, rather than sounding cleanly, kind of farts a bit first, sometimes an octave up, and especially if I am jumping down to it from, saythe G above. Once I'm down in that low register, though, everything is fine between low Bb and Eb and jumping up through any intervals. Maybe it is just me, but I think I need to get it looked at properly rather than hacking away at it myself.

Paul, I hope you get yours sorted very soon, I know about withdrawal symptoms. At least I have something else to play if one of mine packs up.

Good luck, Bob

 

[paul_grant]

Thanks Bob I don't have that option yet. but I'm sure i will have someday soon.

Cheers, Paul

 

[griff136]

You're welcome, guys.

 

[paul_grant]

[No message]

 

[Bobby G]

Mine got sorted too; cause was the 'shoulder' which the neck screw passes through. The facing parts of this weren't parallel i.e. the parts furthest from the slot in the receiver, those on the 'outside' of the screw, if you like, were touching before the screw could be tightened as much as it needed to be. A very small amount of filing on these areas and the faces now stay parallel all the way through the travel of the screw, and hey prestoI have a much cleaner low D.

Hope that all makes sense....