Playing the saxophone Mouthpiece Pitch Revisited

[Guenne]

But I better adapt my embouchure to a whole instrument to optimize its sound, rather than adapting it to a stub. the coupling of the reed with any note will be different than the mouthpiece itself.

There are a lot more parameters you can change playing the whole instrument, hard to keep under control.
Man is built to compensate, which is sometimes useful, sometimes not.
I think it is easier and more useful to try with the mouthpiece alone, in the nude, so to say 🙂

Cheers,
Guenne

 

[aldevis]

I want to be sure I understand your statement. When you say G2, do you mean concert pitch which is A on the tenor? Do you change your embouchure pressure as you go from G2 to G1? Do you change the speed of your airstream as you go from G2 to G1.

When I use numbers after the note, I mean written note, not concert.
G2 is the only note that is consistent with or without the horn attached, if I blow "naturally".
The embouchure that I use for most of the instrument is useless to produce a sound with the mouthpiece alone.

 

[jbtsax]

When I use numbers after the note, I mean written note, not concert.
G2 is the only note that is consistent with or without the horn attached, if I blow "naturally".
The embouchure that I use for most of the instrument is useless to produce a sound with the mouthpiece alone.

How is the "blow naturally" embouchure different from the one used for "most of the instrument"?

 

[aldevis]

How is the "blow naturally" embouchure different from the one used for "most of the instrument"?

Do you voice all the notes the same? with the reed vibrating at the same frequency?
I don't. My reed vibrates at a lower frequency when I play lower notes.

 

[jbtsax]

I'm trying to get an idea of why playing on the mouthpiece alone doesn't work for you. I hope you don't take offense at my questions. I have heard your recordings and you are an amazing jazz player, far better than I am. I guess what I am trying to find out is whether you tighten and loosen the embouchure as you go from one register to the next.

To answer your questions, no I "voice" notes differently with the airspeed and shape inside my mouth, but the embouchure pressure remains the same from the bottom to the top of the horn---an exception being subtoning down low. Everyone's reed vibrates at the frequency of the note that sounds (and its harmonics).

 

[aldevis]

I feel like I tighten when I am using the mouthpiece alone, altering my embouchure to produce a sound. Only in the case of G2 (brief attempt this morning) embouchure (including voicing and airstream) is the same.
I move a lot for timbre reasons, but I try to be careful about not biting at all.

 

[jbtsax]

Thanks. I also realize that jazz players move their embouchure about to produce stylistic inflections in the music. The other difference is that classical players rarely, if ever use a subtone on the lowest notes.

 

[jbtsax]

This is the last installment I will post in this thread on this topic. Of course I will try to answer questions as I can. In this paper I tried to answer the following questions:

• What is the calculated length of the missing cone on my alto sax?

• Using the length of the missing cone plus the length of the neck, what frequency should that produce?

• Is the calculated frequency in close agreement with the played frequency under normal conditions.

I apologize that this has to include a bit of math. It is no more complex than beginning high school algebra.
Here is the paper extracted from an earlier study which also included mouthpiece "effective volume"

Missing Cone Length and Pitch Study

 

[Targa]

I think it is easier and more useful to try with the mouthpiece alone, in the nude, so to say 🙂

Cheers,
Guenne

Better if you get some friends round.

 

[jbtsax]

Better if you get some friends round.

Yeah, some of them might find their "missing cones". 🙂

 

[Guenne]

Heyo,

A very interesting thing happened today.
I tought a young girl on clarinet.
She is in her second year on the clarinet. I had her play a "B" on the MPC alone. It was very hard for her to get the correct pitch, she always played way too low.
When we attached the barrel to the MPC, it was just the other way round, she was not able to keep the pitch down to F#.

Cheers,
Guenne

 

[kevgermany]

Might be different for Deutsches System. I know the mouthpieces are quite different.

 

[Guenne]

Hi Kev,

I play and teach both, so I will do some field testing 🙂

Cheers,
Günter

 

[jbtsax]

Many "student" clarinets come with barrels that are shorter so the instrument can be played up to pitch as the student's embouchure develops. I have seen some that produce a G concert or even higher when played apart from the clarinet. Most literature says the clarinet mouthpiece pitch should be a "C". I would have my students play the mouthpiece and barrel and tighten the embouchure till the reed closes off completely and then tell them to relax it just enough to get a sound. I would describe this as "playing on the top of the pitch" so that if you tighten any more the reed closes off. Of course one needs to be playing on a reed that is not too soft for this technique to work.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Followed all with great interest. Amused to see that I am not alone in having tried bari reeds on tenor and all the swaps you can imagine. Didn't work for me either. Question is a simple one. Early on you say there are reports that some players can sound a complete octave scale on mpc alone. What is a complete octave scale? It is not not doh rae etc x 1, that isn't so hard. What is it? There is quite a lot I do not understand there, but I don't think it will advance the thread to question here, I must go to google and wallow in it all for a while.

Many thanks for an interesting read.
Mike

 

[jbtsax]

The scale is a major scale or minor scale or whatever you want it to be. It is played by adjusting the voicing inside the mouth and throat to play that range of pitches on the mouthpiece alone. It comes easier for some folks than for others. You can do a similar exercise fingering palm D on the saxophone, but you will not be able to bend the pitch quite as far as on the mp alone.

 

[Guenne]

Hey,

I've tried to reach C on the clari MPC (Boehm and Deutsch).
Impossible task for me. B feels natural for a characteristic clarinet tone, though I must say I'm curious how you reach C.

@Mike:
If you are interested in MPC-Exercises, go to Leo Dale's website:

Cheers,
Guenne

 

[jbtsax]

I'm impressed by his ability to control the sound and his range, but disappointed that he provided no explanation of what takes place inside the mouth to alter the pitch in that fashion. One can tell by the video that it does not involve tightening and relaxing the embouchure. Thanks Guenne for posting that video.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I've also been following this thread with interest. The mention of clarinet mouthpiece pitch inspired me to check mine. No problem with just the mouthpiece but with the barrel added I'm very sharp and unstable. I decided to root around in the kit drawer and try a longer barrel. The barrel that came with the Corton is a 66mm. I found a 68mm that came with an old bundy. Somewhat closer with this but not bang on and not comfortable.

I decided to check the tuning through the range of the clarinet. Sharp through the whole range. A quick trawl on the internet revealed that a 70mm barrel would need to be a special order. I have a friend who turns wood and may be able to get one made. The upshot is I've made a 3mm tuning ring to use with the 66mm.

The difference has amazed me. It shouldn't have surprised me because it's so obvious in hind sight, but it did. When you're not struggling, without knowing, for pitch, the tone can come through. Fast runs through the break have become more stable and that occasional loss of control resulting in a squeak has gone.

Thanks for pointing me to a solution to a problem I didn't even know I had.

 

[kevgermany]

This has been posted before, but well worth another look

David Pope demonstrates the keyless alto saxophone:

http://youtu.be/PQyz34KZviM