Teaching 'Memorise Music Quickly & Reliably" course

@LostCircuits

Thank you, that was interesting. I have a feeling the course I mentioned works on some of those principles, particularly making STM more LTM and the role of sleep/zero input.

Personally, I find writing things down really helps getting them into my memory. Scales, arpeggios, chord formulae, intervals, cycle of fifths. Not once but repeatedly over time. Then I can usually 'see' them in my mind's eye. I would like to be able to do the same on the horn, play the song repeatedly so it sinks in.

The saying 'When eating an elephant take one bite at a time' possibly applies here.
 
When you sleep, memory fragments are consolidated to coherent copies
I feel the sleep bit is often overlooked.

When I was (and am again) learning Norwegian songs, parret fashion, I methodically practiced one chunk, slept, revised / reenforced the next day and moved on slowly. By the end of which I could sing everything without looking.


The corollary of which is - don't go to bed with a mistake!

Better to learn a little correctly than a lot with errors (you think ) you'll fix tomorrow!



Sleep &
Practice makes permanent!
 
@LostCircuits

Thank you, that was interesting. I have a feeling the course I mentioned works on some of those principles, particularly making STM more LTM and the role of sleep/zero input.

Personally, I find writing things down really helps getting them into my memory. Scales, arpeggios, chord formulae, intervals, cycle of fifths. Not once but repeatedly over time. Then I can usually 'see' them in my mind's eye. I would like to be able to do the same on the horn, play the song repeatedly so it sinks in.

The saying 'When eating an elephant take one bite at a time' possibly applies here.
I can't really say what he's offering, there is a lot of fluff in the ad but it looks like he is also embracing the idea of creating a framework, wherein you can add complex patterns (melodies) in the form of placeholders and associations or "symbols".

In computer sciences this would be equivalent to a "content addressable memory", where you hear a phrase and you store it as the location where that information already exists. That is the most efficient way of learning (of anything) but you need to build the framework first. After that, everything falls into place.
 
I can't really say what he's offering, there is a lot of fluff in the ad but it looks like he is also embracing the idea of creating a framework, wherein you can add complex patterns (melodies) in the form of placeholders and associations or "symbols".

...............
I wonder if a 'hook and peg' association method might be involved but can't see how that covers sounds/notes. I sure I read a bit about identifying sequences such as an arpeggio or a repeated phrase and 'storing' those and using those to attach the rest.
 
In other words, you hear a phrase and it'll be: "Ok, I know this it's like .... that's already part of my repertoire"
Today I was 'noodling' after formal practice and played a series of notes which seemed very familiar. Did it a few times varying the tempo then recognised it as the opening bars to Another Brick in The Wall Part 11 by Pink Floyd.....We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control .... C D Eb D C D Eb F F G F G F Eb D F G
Never played it before but listened to it countless times so it's in my head.
 
I wonder if a 'hook and peg' association method might be involved but can't see how that covers sounds/notes. I sure I read a bit about identifying sequences such as an arpeggio or a repeated phrase and 'storing' those and using those to attach the rest.
But that's exactly what it is.

Listen to:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56ChPB0_aYM


and then at 0:12

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6LHo3Tnmcw


And I can probably find you another dozen songs where it becomes just add "the Nearness of you" etc.
Once you identify something, you don't need to memorize the notes anymore.
 
I think the truth is it might be easy for some people but for most of us it's a sweat but if you sweat enough it gets easier. Alternatively you can send money to somebody who promises you an easy way but really you still end up sweating anyway and you're a few bucks lighter.

There have been any number of methods for doing this and the Lego blocks one is probably the best but you still have to put in the work.
 
I wonder if a 'hook and peg' association method might be involved but can't see how that covers sounds/notes. I sure I read a bit about identifying sequences such as an arpeggio or a repeated phrase and 'storing' those and using those to attach the rest.
IMHO, the thing is, one remembers sequences of chunks. But what makes a chunk can change. Initially kids read (chunks of) letters, than words, then phrases...
We learn notes (the chunk); but after practicing tunes and/or practicing patterns the chunks become patterns, then phrases... And well know melodic sequences..

The bigger the chunk, the more you can learn and recall in one go.
In my little story above about learning songs; I could learn little Swedish or dialect in one go because the chunks are small - more Norwegian - knowing more words - and huge globs of English songs.

And I'm pretty sure this applies to reading as much as learning music by ear.
 
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When it comes to music, there are two things going on. One, the notes themselves. Two, the connection between that note and the act of playing it on a specific instrument (fingering, blowing, etc.)

I remember how hard it was to memorize the 1st movement of the Mozart clarinet concerto, which I was tasked with by my teacher. Took weeks. 2 years later, I was in a working funk band and we had to learn dozens of tunes and horn parts. We started by getting 15-20 songs down in a week and a half. And I was actively playing jazz at the time too, so learning new tunes all the time. Some from the page, some from records.

Fast forward to 1979. I started working in casino show room orchestras, and my first gig was in the relief band, which played a different house every night (giving the house band a night off). Wednesday was the MGM Grand, which had a set stage show in 4 acts, with magicians, comedians, dog acts, etc. in between. The show was 1 hour and 45 minutes long, we did it twice a night. By the time I had done that for 6 months, I had the book memorized, I would just flip each section over on the stand as it started and play the entire thing from memory. I didn’t work at it, it just drilled its little subversive self into my brain. I did that show for 3 1/2 years.

I think it’s a combination of hearing the music in context and the amount of time I spend thinking about music, plus playing and practicing. I see a phrase using a C scale on the page, I immediately remember the sound, the fingerings, the feeling of playing it. And if I hear it in context (i.e. with the rest of the group) while playing it, I get how it fits in with the rest of the music. So now I have two things to hang this phrase on - how it feels to play those notes, and how it sounds in context.

All this is a very long-winded way to say that it takes time to build these memorization muscles. Repetition is mastery.
 
@LostCircuits

Thank you, that was interesting. I have a feeling the course I mentioned works on some of those principles, particularly making STM more LTM and the role of sleep/zero input.

Personally, I find writing things down really helps getting them into my memory. Scales, arpeggios, chord formulae, intervals, cycle of fifths. Not once but repeatedly over time. Then I can usually 'see' them in my mind's eye. I would like to be able to do the same on the horn, play the song repeatedly so it sinks in.

The saying 'When eating an elephant take one bite at a time' possibly applies here.
I don't know if I'm somehow an odd one out in this post. Memorizing by writing (a non aural exercise) may work for visual learners, yet has no relevance for me, and shouldn't to many others. If I can hear a tune in my head, I can play it, whether it's something I've herd before and familiar with, or I'm just making it up. Vocalizing a tune I'm not immediately "catching" means that I've got it... or will get it eventually. For me music memorization has nothing to do with finger memory, memorizing dots, or pattern repetition. It's hearing it in your head and making it come out of your horn.

This is also how I improvise on novel/new music. I hear the music and what melody, harmony, counterpoint, etc. could fit, so play what I'm hearing and anticipate where it's going. No dots, repetition, academic analysis or theory required... just ears.

It may not be something that everyone can eventually do, yet aural learners aren't all that scarce. If you have any aural learning ability... able to hear and repeat music or sounds you hear, which can be as simple as singing tunes you may have never sung, but know, then you have all you need to memorize music.

Music comes from you. The horn is an intermediary device that can be your voice. The horn can also be your impediment. Many of you seem hung up in trying to make dots or horn/finger playing patterns stick in your brain. That's not music memory, and that should be obvious. Memorize the music instead using your ears.

If most all teaching/learning is based on visual references (a very academic method), then you're missing what may be the most important aspect of music... listening. Once again some very visual learners may not be capable, however brain plasticity for most allows us to adapt to some degree. The relevant question is can you sing a tune you've never sung but know? That's musical memory that did not come from your repeating it, memorizing dots, or patterns. It's pure musical memory. Repeating a musical memory is possible in playing any instrument, but it takes work. You need to make the instrument your voice. Creating music is an extension of playing what you hear in your head.

Unfortunately academic methods and promised "tricks" do not = listening and internalizing music. Nor do most methods of teaching make you one with your instrument. It takes practice directed at that goal, or just an awful lot of playing until your familiarity with your instrument gives you that ability.

Do not waste your time and efforts in making music a continual effort where you are forever translating visual or tactile mental elements/memories into music that you're NOT first hearing in your head. Hearing the music within you comes first in order to play music effectively, giving emphasis and feeling. Otherwise you may be just playing notes (like a flesh based music box) instead of making music.

Caveat: If you are one of the extreme visual learners and wish to play music as it gives you pleasure, do so by whatever means you can. The rest of you have a choice.
 
For me music memorization has nothing to do with finger memory, memorizing dots, or pattern repetition. It's hearing it in your head and making it come out of your horn.
Agree but I'm not at the stage yet where I can play what's in my head, but getting better at it.
This is also how I improvise on novel/new music. I hear the music and what melody, harmony, counterpoint, etc. could fit, so play what I'm hearing and anticipate where it's going. No dots, repetition, academic analysis or theory required... just ears.
Obviously my improvising is basic but I listen to where the music is going and fit notes to that. I have been told it is good for a beginner. I assume this comes from years and years of music appreciation and hearing phrases and patterns and how they lead to each other. Some of my listening must have been internalised, just need to get access to it.
If most all teaching/learning is based on visual references (a very academic method), then you're missing what may be the most important aspect of music... listening.
As above I've listened to music from a young age i.e. listened to the flow, melody, rhythm of the music rather than a background noise. After hearing it I can usually hum and improv over it.
The relevant question is can you sing a tune you've never sung but know?
Yes, well 'sing' might not be the right word but I can usually hum, whistle or scat it.
Hearing the music within you comes first in order to play music effectively, giving emphasis and feeling. Otherwise you may be just playing notes (like a flesh based music box) instead of making music.
I have tried writing down a solo and playing from the notes but it sounds stilted whereas if I just let go and play without the dots it seems to flow better and has more feeling.
Caveat: If you are one of the extreme visual learners and wish to play music as it gives you pleasure, do so by whatever means you can. The rest of you have a choice.
I wouldn't say I'm an extreme visual learner, just that for some things it helps me. I'm sure ear training is the key and will spend more time on this aspect. As I mentioned here or on another thread I am beginning to play simple phrases and riffs from memory, or play some notes and recognise them and develop them. That is how I worked out some of, opening bars usually, Fly Me To The Moon, Falling In Love With You, What It's Like To Be Free.

Thanks for the input.
 
Wonder if Yuja took that memory course? 🧐
She is a very gifted, talented, accomplished pianist, a show in her own right. She also probably spent many years working on and perfecting that piece that she played, perhaps since college? Hence why she had it memorised?

I one time forgot to bring my Hal Leonard Jazz Play Along book, "Hymns" to Salvation Army chapel. I just did "Jesus Loves Me" from memory, but it had an advantage. Since I didn't have my book in front of me, I played gazing into the audience instead of having my eyes buried in the book during my special number.

It worked out fine, the audience appreciated it, especially the teens who are interested in school band.

I had practiced that tune many times in my living room, plus played it many a time in the nursing homes. To say nonetheless I had it memorised. (Do you think I mix the zeds and esses to drive the grammarians nuts?)
Grammarian800.webp

From Grammarian , but is incomplete as it now is missing the graphic. (I archived these about 20 years ago - good for taunting humour.)

Being that the backing track had that tune set to a quick jazz samba and the nice thing about improv is that if I by accident did a verse of it in improv instead of melody and vice versa, nothing is lost as long as I ended the song as my community band director put it, "with the right note". 😉
 
I never saw her and many other pianists, with music on the piano.
I watched a concert pianist, sight read the music, for an entire Opera, while the understudies for the Met, performed in full costume.
Another fine pianist turned the pages.
Some are in a different league than others.

The retired chair, of the neurology department, at a major medical school, asked me to explain how concert musicians, can play an entire concert from memory.
I explained it to him, for only 15 bucks and a bottle of Dom. 🥂
Just kidding, it was Gatorade.
August in Florida.
 
You should listen/watch Yuga's many performances.
I had some of my young Flute students, and Guitar/Sax, copy a concerto, with pencil/staff paper, of Baroque music.
Helped them memorize stuff.
Some listen to a string quartet and hear four parts, others just the music.
Repetitive listening practice. 🎯
A concert pianist, told me there are over 100 ways to strike a key, while we were rehearsing, with me on Alto Sax.
When we finished our chores, he only got to about 70, and the 5th of Jack was empty. 😜
 
You should listen/watch Yuga's many performances.
I had some of my young Flute students, and Guitar/Sax, copy a concerto, with pencil/staff paper, of Baroque music.
Helped them memorize stuff.
Some listen to a string quartet and hear four parts, others just the music.
Repetitive listening practice. 🎯
A concert pianist, told me there are over 100 ways to strike a key, while we were rehearsing, with me on Alto Sax.
When we finished our chores, he only got to about 70, and the 5th of Jack was empty. 😜
Some people are just geniuses at what they do but I bet she's been playing from a child and done hours and hours of practise to get that good, their dedication is beyond what most of us are prepared to do.
 
Talking to a guy I've known for decades and finding his name is a complete blank to me, I'm panicing.

We part company and he calls "Goodnight Colin".

I respond "Goodnight Geoff"

And in the car I'm telling myself, "Geoff, his name is Geoff. You idiot!"

A course may not be enough.

I've come to that point in life where it takes access to more than one person's memory to recall people, places or events. Some conversations feel like a Two Ronnie's sketch.
 
I don't know if I'm somehow an odd one out in this post. Memorizing by writing (a non aural exercise) may work for visual learners, yet has no relevance for me, and shouldn't to many others. If I can hear a tune in my head, I can play it, whether it's something I've herd before and familiar with, or I'm just making it up. Vocalizing a tune I'm not immediately "catching" means that I've got it... or will get it eventually. For me music memorization has nothing to do with finger memory, memorizing dots, or pattern repetition. It's hearing it in your head and making it come out of your horn.

This is also how I improvise on novel/new music. I hear the music and what melody, harmony, counterpoint, etc. could fit, so play what I'm hearing and anticipate where it's going. No dots, repetition, academic analysis or theory required... just ears.

It may not be something that everyone can eventually do, yet aural learners aren't all that scarce. If you have any aural learning ability... able to hear and repeat music or sounds you hear, which can be as simple as singing tunes you may have never sung, but know, then you have all you need to memorize music.

Music comes from you. The horn is an intermediary device that can be your voice. The horn can also be your impediment. Many of you seem hung up in trying to make dots or horn/finger playing patterns stick in your brain. That's not music memory, and that should be obvious. Memorize the music instead using your ears.

If most all teaching/learning is based on visual references (a very academic method), then you're missing what may be the most important aspect of music... listening. Once again some very visual learners may not be capable, however brain plasticity for most allows us to adapt to some degree. The relevant question is can you sing a tune you've never sung but know? That's musical memory that did not come from your repeating it, memorizing dots, or patterns. It's pure musical memory. Repeating a musical memory is possible in playing any instrument, but it takes work. You need to make the instrument your voice. Creating music is an extension of playing what you hear in your head.

Unfortunately academic methods and promised "tricks" do not = listening and internalizing music. Nor do most methods of teaching make you one with your instrument. It takes practice directed at that goal, or just an awful lot of playing until your familiarity with your instrument gives you that ability.

Do not waste your time and efforts in making music a continual effort where you are forever translating visual or tactile mental elements/memories into music that you're NOT first hearing in your head. Hearing the music within you comes first in order to play music effectively, giving emphasis and feeling. Otherwise you may be just playing notes (like a flesh based music box) instead of making music.

Caveat: If you are one of the extreme visual learners and wish to play music as it gives you pleasure, do so by whatever means you can.
The rest of you have a choice.
Yes, everybody is different but all our sensory inputs (minus olfactory) are intertwined in the thalamus for synchronization. And that's why you can intermodality as a much more precise reference than for example a scale from 1 to 10. Hand somebody a tensiometer and ask to express brightness or loudness in the form of finger pressure and you'll get amazingly precise answers.

The point is that even if you cannot directly translate fingering shapes to music, it would be impossible to separate them. The degree of intermodal exchange of information varies from one person to another but it is a very important aspect of signal processing and by extension, committing to memory.

And 100%, do not try to adopt or imitate another person's way of learning if you can do it better in a different fashion. Music is in your head and everything else is just a method of sharing.

BTW, I highly recommend the books by Oliver Sacks on the subject, especially music.
 

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