Theory & Impro Major or Minor scale?

[RiceBag]

Do jazz people THINK of playing in Major or Minor scale, when they share the same scale, or this question wron?

I play by ear, and do have to make a determination there.

Thanks!

 

[Simon]

Hi RB,

Do you mean, if someone was playing in C major or A Minor are they thinking of the letter names that make up the scales and chords ?

When you're learning yes it can be helpful. But it's a shortcut to getting the sound in your head, so that after a while you should be able to tell what harmony you're in (ie major or minor) and play accordingly.

Generally if you're trying to solo and you're having to think too much, it'll come out in your expressionless, uninspiring sound.

The aim is to make it all intuitive, and this can take a lot of time. Theory, ear training etc are ways to shorten the time.

Simon

 

[RiceBag]

Hi Simon, and thanks for your explanation.

Yes, I do as Am is relative to C major scale, and in particular to when some Songs say they are in the key of C, one can think that it is in the key of A minor, right?

For me, it's not about solo, but using chords. But for instance, if you use the Roman Numerals I V and so, don't one need to determine what Key they apply to, and it would make a difference if I say It's C or Aminor? Or, when Roman Numeral are mentioned, is not that for Major a Major key, never for a minor, so do people as such therefore 'think' of Major?

Also, I mean when pros say this is in the key of X, I never hear them say it's in the key of Y-minor, for instance. So, when I hear some reference to something being in a certain key, do I assume it's in that Major key?

Yes, I know what you mean about too much reasoning not being good for performing.

Thanks and sorry for asking this but I am a donkey with no training. But my respect for you all is high.:erm:

 

[Simon]

You sound a little tangled up there mate.

Yes the notes of A minor (relative) are the same as C Major, but the chord notes are not - hence the harmony and its sound are completely different. Minor harmony to some sounds 'sad', whereas major is 'relaxed' and feels resolved, happy.

Yes, roman numerals can be applied to both major and minor harmony.

There are a whole bunch of tunes in minor keys, so yes pros would say "let's play a blues in A minor" or "Song for My Father in F minor"... but they probably wouldn't mention the minor bit because they'd know the tune and how it went...

So to sum up:
The notes of a major scale and its relative minor are the same but the harmony is very different. It helps to learn the notes of both.

The chords of a major and its relative minor are different. It's best to hear these as separate sounds, especially because the relative minor is swapped for other forms of it (eg melodic minor)

Simon

RiceBag wrote:
Hi Simon, and thanks for your explanation.

Yes, I do as Am is relative to C major scale, and in particular to when some Songs say they are in the key of C, one can think that it is in the key of A minor, right?

For me, it's not about solo, but using chords. But for instance, if you use the Roman Numerals I V and so, don't one need to determine what Key they apply to, and it would make a difference if I say It's C or Aminor? Or, when Roman Numeral are mentioned, is not that for Major a Major key, never for a minor, so do people as such therefore 'think' of Major?

Also, I mean when pros say this is in the key of X, I never hear them say it's in the key of Y-minor, for instance. So, when I hear some reference to something being in a certain key, do I assume it's in that Major key?

Yes, I know what you mean about too much reasoning not being good for performing.

Thanks and sorry for asking this but I am a donkey with no training. But my respect for you all is high.:erm:

 

[Pete Thomas]

Have a look at the jazz pages on my site.

Some is a bit advanced, but if you start at the beginners stuff (look at the rock & roll beginners theory not just the jazz theory.

There may be some gaps between the beginners and advanced, but I'm working on that and I'm always happy to get feedback on the pages there - what doesn't make sense ask about it here.

The tricky thing is to grasp the two ways of looking at it.

C major = same notes as Am

You can learn your minors like this (= relative minors)

BUT ALSO:

Learn that the difference between C major and C minor is that it's the same notes but with some of them flattened (most notably the 3rd which defines the minor sound in a scale or chord)

Sadly it's not that simple. There is only one major scale, but several types of minor scale.

 

[RiceBag]

Hi Simon and Pete, and thanks for the explanations.

Actually no, am not that tangled about the harmony aspect of what chords a song calls for.

Basically why I was asking is because I can say to myself this song is in A minor, or this song is in C major and I play the right chords either way.

And also I know that I can often interchange a minor chord for its relative major, and viceversa. Actually almost always, if I add 6 or 7 or other extra keys a song can be played with mostly major chords or mostly minor chords, I think and find.

Your clarification that musicians often omit the word "minor" because they already know is good enough. Yet they could as well said it was in its relative major, I feel?

Another reason I ask is because as part of my learning some more things, after having been to this forum, I got Band in a Box and Real Band software, and I have discovered many useful and intersting things.

That software can decipher the chords of Audio songs quite well, but in one of the Video tutorials, the fellow says that although a song is in some minor, he prefers to call it AND PUT IT in its relative major because there would be less accidentals.

I also long time ago saw in a website of some educated musician writing about the Anadaluz scale (Spain) he is not quite clear, he says, if it's minor or a Major scale. I use that scale much, and I know what chords to put to mos songs I hear, but again, as that fellow, can think of those songs as being Major or its relative minor.

Some times what I do is: if the minor scale starts in a black key, It usually easier for me to think its in Major white key, when it so corresponds. If the first note of the scale starts in a white key, I usually find it easier to think it's in a Major scale. Other times I don't care.

I can play in most keys the same song, and ultimately names mean nothing. But they are a reference, isn't it?

So why can't it be said "All songs are in a minor key" or all songs are in "Major keys"? As long as the harmony is the same, of course.

So maybe the preference is to have "less accidentals", as I heard that fellow say in the video?

But since I don't write nor read music, THAT probably means nothing to me?

I agree, though, that my head is tangled, but most often my fingers ingore the head. But I strive for both to be free, though.

I'll check your site, Pete. And kudos for your philanthropy and all the good things you do for musicianship.

Thanks again, everyone!

 

[Simon]

Hi RB,

It all comes down to what it sounds like to you. Labels are labels, nothing more.

So why can't it be said "All songs are in a minor key" or all songs are in "Major keys"? As long as the harmony is the same, of course.

Because they sound different. In a lot of music it's also a bit ambiguous calling an entire tune a 'minor key' - it may start and finish in a minor key - or a 'major' key because of modulation that may happen through a tune - eg Horace Silver's Nica's Dream... a minor key tune, that goes to the major in the bridge.

So maybe the preference is to have "less accidentals", as I heard that fellow say in the video?

What and play everything in C ? That'd sound a bit boring and because saxophonists play transposing instruments, you need 12 key understanding, if not ability.

Plus certain keys (major or minor) have certain characterisitics... f'rinstance a Db blues is just that bit more interesting than C... it has a different sound entirely.

Simon

 

[RiceBag]

Hi again, and thanks a lot Simon.

I do need to realize a lot more things, obviously.

I like your explanation. I feel at times music just can't be "perfect", but it's my thinking that is not, of course.

What I need to do is do more swimming in the vast see.

Thanks again! :whistle:

 

[RiceBag]

Dup deleted.

 

[old_git]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, Ricey but get the impression that you are playing about on an electronic keyboard. Most possess the ability to transpose, so if you're playing blues, play it in C and then play the same and just set the board a semitone higher, Db. If the difference appeals, try other transposing options. You'll be following the twelve note scale trail. 😉

 

[RiceBag]

Hi OldGit,

I do use MIDI keyboard but don't like using the transpose functions.

I enjoy a lot figuring out the chords of songs no mater what the key.

What I have badly asked/stated is that if, since there is a minor scale that corresponds to a major scale, and viceversa, meaning that there's but ONE scale for both, then theoretically we could live with just saying there are no minor scales, or viceversa. Or, we could just call it whatever we wanted.

I never meant to say that major chords are the same as minor chords, or that CMajor is the same as Cminor.

For instance, if we gave someone just the scale notes of the C major scale, he could easily harmonize A minor tunes with the major and minor chords that are proper to that scale.

I realize that the C major stars on C tone and the Aminor scale starts in A tone.

I learned acoustic guitar with a system of chord charts that are numbered 1 to 40 and there are only 12 charts, one for each tone (or note).

In that chart are both major and minor chords that relate to that key.

So, only 12 charts are needed, and there's no distinction as to Major or Minor charts.

So, a song can be harmonized using, say the chart for C, or the chart for A and end up with EXACTLY the same harmony chords.

The only difference is you'd be using DIFERENT numbers from one chart to the other.

Once the numbers are established, for transposing, all one has to do is pick a different chart.

It's not a big deal, any way. And I know nothing beats reading/writing musical staff. I read how it works but probably won't ever detail. I play melody by chords.

By the way, in the piano I often hit the Major with one hand and the relative minor with the other. So, is that chord a Major or a minor?

Thanks everyone!

 

[Simon]

Hi RB,

RiceBag wrote:
What I have badly asked/stated is that if, since there is a minor scale that corresponds to a major scale, and viceversa, meaning that there's but ONE scale for both, then theoretically we could live with just saying there are no minor scales, or viceversa. Or, we could just call it whatever we wanted.

As we keep agreeing on, the note / scale names of A (relative) minor and C Major are the same. However the chord / harmony is not :

A minor (pure, relative, aeolian mode)
A B C D E F G A and the chord A C E (G)

C Major (ionian mode)
C D E F G A B C and the chord C E G (B)

Take a look at the INTERVALS between the notes of the chords:

You've got:

a minor 3rd A - C, minor 7th A - G in A Minor,
a major 3rd C - E, major 7th C - B in C Major

They sound very different because of this.

I never meant to say that major chords are the same as minor chords, or that CMajor is the same as Cminor.

No, because you'd be talking about a PARALLEL scale/chord then (eg C major, C minor), not a RELATIVE one (eg C major, A minor)

For instance, if we gave someone just the scale notes of the C major scale, he could easily harmonize A minor tunes with the major and minor chords that are proper to that scale.

You could up to a point - its called DIATONIC harmony and whilst its fun for a bit (and a good starting point), there's plenty of other more exciting stuff to get into. Try the scale/chords built off the 5th and 7th notes are the ones with the tension that would want to resolve.

ALSO let's not overlook the fact that the A minor (relative) is a bit plain... musos use dorian, melodic, harmonic sometimes phrygian minors to make it more interesting, and there's a whole new world of discovery in harmonising these variations (which u sure don't do using the major scale/chord)...

I learned acoustic guitar with a system of chord charts that are numbered 1 to 40 and there are only 12 charts, one for each tone (or note). In that chart are both major and minor chords that relate to that key. So, only 12 charts are needed, and there's no distinction as to Major or Minor charts.

So, a song can be harmonized using, say the chart for C, or the chart for A and end up with EXACTLY the same harmony chords.
The only difference is you'd be using DIFERENT numbers from one chart to the other.

I'd take a guess and say there's no distinction because the charts are teaching you fingering positions and different voicings, rather than different chords/scales ? A guitar thing... 😉

By the way, in the piano I often hit the Major with one hand and the relative minor with the other. So, is that chord a Major or a minor?

So like ACE left hand, CEG right hand ? Am7... so, A minor. Although not a very good sound - notes too close together.

I'd play it AG left hand, C only right hand. Reason ? More space, emphasises the 3rd and the 7th and leads nicely to...

D F# left hand and C in the right

and then to...

G F# left hand, and B in the right.... a 2-5-1 chord progression!!
(Try it on piano - notice the small changes you have to make with your fingers... that's the good stuff right there!)

Have fun!
Simon

 

[RiceBag]

Hi and Thank You, Simon.

Your beautiful explanation is good steering, I say, becuse it's like arrows hitting the right spots, for what you say actually agrees with what little I can express.

Yes, I know there are songs that go C Major to Cminor, and now I know that's called 'parallel', even though I was not refering to that.

As to guitar, I never know what notes I'm playing. I like the piano for that, and I really don't know how I could do both a Major chord and its relative minor at the same time in the guitar. I don't really want to go there, even if possible, yet. I think what you say is right on the charts. They were/are still practical to me, though. I use them also to figure out piano stuff. Sometimes the piano is easier, sometime the guitar. The two complement in my learning. I am trying to learn beyond those charts, though.

I do follow you on "notes too close toghether". In fact, I learned a bit of that somewhere in the web, things like "open chords", but notes "not too far apart either". And, I actually don't quite hit the Major and minor chords fully, but more often, as you say, one or the other is partial. And I am learning about Suspended chords use lately. Before, I never used them, unless by chance. I do understand about tension chords, a little at least. Suspended sound somewhat like major 7th, I think.

I am going to study the things you mention towards the end of your post. Yes, I have become more and more aware of how moving one or two fingers forward makes good sounds. Usually two semitones up, or so, and also how chord inversions make good sounds and even playing easier. I need more practice on that. The software I got is teaching me how they make chords and how different they do things than my old ways.

And then I come up with a few more ways. I only feel poor of having gotten to all these things so late in life.

But better late than never.

Thanks everyone, again!

 

[old_git]

Thank you Simon and RB, nice different voicings, especially with instant damping.
Perhaps the difference is between a hobby and work/vocation. Simon and Pete, you are both very professional musicians and explain items in a plain yet informative way. Ricebag and myself are amateurs. Any breakdown in communication is due to you not knowing where to start with those benefiting from your advice. If you do not know how much we know, where do you start?
I don't have the brain power left for much theory, it's all been taken up with coaching theory, vehicle dynamics and risk assessment. If either of you would like to donate your brain, I would be a happy recipient. Sadly you would lose out in the swap.
Thanks again but please do not give up on trying to educate us.