Saxophones Low Bb vs low A baritones.

[turf3]

I've acquired a few more since then. 😉 I also have a neon sax clock. Very retro 60s in my MCM house.

BTW, I am in the process of transposing a number of our bari charts--mostly funk and the likes--for the bass. It will be nice to get bad boy out on shows semi-regularly again.

I was bound and determined to move the bari sax parts in one big band to bass. With something like 250 charts in the book, I wasn't going to transcribe them all, but I was working on getting the transposition under my fingers, when COVID hit, I had to move cross country, the big band folded, etc., etc., etc., and the bass sax has only been out of its case for trad jazz gigs (and REAL intermittently at that) since.

 

[Tonehole]

I wish I could get this much discussion about sopranino's! A lot of valuable insights being shared and stories told.
🤗

 

[Stocker]

I knew, of course, that Leblanc imported a number of Yanis stamped "Martin" - were any of those baritones? I've only ever heard of tenors and altos. (At that point the "Martin" brand was truly circling the drain; and Leblanc had the Vito and Noblet brands - so Vito or Noblet baritones could have been made by Yani, Beaugnier, or Yamaha (not sure if this last one ever happened, either)). I know I'm getting the timing of those different stencils all mixed up.

I have 1974, 1976, and 1977 Leblanc price lists, and in each one the only Martin saxophones listed are baritones, in both low B♭ and low A.

(This is not to be construed as an opinion on what artists in what genres were using what horns in what eras.)

 

[turf3]

I have 1974, 1976, and 1977 Leblanc price lists, and in each one the only Martin saxophones listed are baritones, in both low B♭ and low A.

(This is not to be construed as an opinion on what artists in what genres were using what horns in what eras.)

Were these real Martins or YaniMartins? Or maybe the low Bb was Martin and the low A was YaniMartin?

 

[thomsax]

Does anyone make a low A bass sax?

Not really, but a Bb bass that became a bass sax in low A. Listen to the bass sax and read the story who a Bb bass sax was converted to a bass sax in A. Jan Lundberg is a professor in acustic at LTH up in noth of Sweden.

View: https://youtu.be/_R43kY-VkEk?si=--gAbteM5HE4X89H

 

[Stocker]

Were these real Martins or YaniMartins? Or maybe the low Bb was Martin and the low A was YaniMartin?

I've never seen any evidence of real Martins being built that late, so I'd guess that both were Yanis. I can't imagine they would've had that much unsold baritone inventory left over from Elkhart.

 

[Tonehole]

"While Yanagisawa is famous for popularising the modern Low A baritone, they did manufacture a very small number of Low Bb baritone saxophones during their early modern era (the 1970s). When Leblanc contracted Yanagisawa to build "stencil" saxophones under the Martin nameplate in the 1970s, a few Low Bb models were produced alongside the more common Low A variations."

Brands and Horns | JazzBariSax.com

jazzbarisax.com

How to confirm if a 1970s Low Bb Martin is a Yanagisawa:

• The "Japan" Stamp: The horn will explicitly have "Japan" stamped near the serial number on the back of the tube.
• The Neck Brace: Yanagisawa stencil horns from this era usually feature the signature Yanagisawa emblem or "Y" shape on the neck brace.
• Modern Ergonomics: Unlike a vintage American Martin with its distinct left-hand pinky table and soldered bevelled tone holes, a 1970s Yanagisawa stencil will feature standard modern keywork reminiscent of a Selmer Paris design."
• Baritone Saxophone Archive

If the instrument says "Elkhart, IND" on the bell and has a serial number between 150,000 and 350,000, it is actually an original, leftover American-made Martin Committee body manufactured just before or right as the factory closed at the turn of the decade.

Martin History :: SaxPics.com

www.saxpics.com

 

[thomsax]

A Martin Baritone to low A by Yanagisawa. It's a 880 model/sax, probably from 1982.

View: https://youtu.be/xu4etQRH68w?si=tpZEG-fssJk3mfIv

 

[thomsax]

Here is an american low A comparison by Paul Cohen. Mk VI is the first one and the baritone that sat the standard for a low A baritone. I think "The Martin Magna Baritone" is the one with the "best/even scale" (intonation)?

View: https://youtu.be/29m5VlmTjs0?si=Bn5QFH25jUoEBM5t

 

[PigSquealer]

All this low A Bari talk is getting me motivated to work on my Van Marle low A. One of two made.

Saxophones - Van Marle Baritone, Who made this ?

I was gifted a very unusual baritone. I can’t figure out who the maker is. @Stephen Howard @helen @milandro noted some features but were unable to completely identify the maker. This does have some Pierret features. Cann’t find any record of Pierret making a baritone. “Made in France “. You...

cafesaxophone.com

This is the other and one SN# different.

View: https://youtu.be/x9N9PTTzmSs?is=K4zC2yWH4zFrl5R6

 

[Grumps]

Here is an american low A comparison by Paul Cohen. Mk VI is the first one and the baritone that sat the standard for a low A baritone. I think "The Martin Magna Baritone" is the one with the "best/even scale" (intonation)?

View: https://youtu.be/29m5VlmTjs0?si=Bn5QFH25jUoEBM5t

Paul is a regular at the Symposium, usually puts on a performance or two and is easily approached.

 

[thomsax]

Paul is a regular at the Symposium, usually puts on a performance or two and is easily approached.

I bought my "The Martin Baritone" from Paul Cohen. Many years ago.

 

[helen]

.....

Here is a comparison of a few Bari's. He comments that Low Bb plays like a large tenor which is how I view it as well.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyTPuRFKqE

Well, I've been playing low Bb baritone since 1984 and I have to say the "large tenor" comment makes absolutely zero sense to me. If you try to play baritone sax like it's a large tenor you'll end up with a weak uninteresting sound, strange intonation, and difficulty in completing phrases musically.

As I said earlier, when I hvae a chance to give a spin to a low A, it plays not that much differently than my low Bb except of course for that extra note. That doesn't mean they're all the same, for sure.

Interesting. I had not seen this video. Thanks for the link!

Although I often I find myself not agreeing with his opinions, in this particular case I am with him 100%.

When I play my low Bb Mark VI, the way it is is laid out, and the amount of air that it requires, is not much different than my Mark VI tenor. My Selmer bari and tenor play incredibly similar to each other. (BTW, bari has been my main axe since uni.)

Even my low Bb Committee III is easy-blowing, and while requiring more air than my Selmer bari, requires far less less air than my low A bari. Which brings me to my Couf.

My low A Couf is a beast when it comes to both weight--how much? I don't know, but now I am going to weigh all my big horns b/c this conversation has me very curious--and amount of air it requires. I wish a had a low Bb Couf to compare it to, to see if it is this particular horn, or if all JK baris from the era were like this.

Conversely, I would like to try a Mark VI low A or Martin Magna low A to see what they are like, to see what the difference really is.

Bottom line, I do find that my low Bb and low A horn baris respond differently, and most definitely have different tonal complexities. I always assumed it had to do with the fact that they were different makes & models.

However, after viewing this video, I am coming to the conclusion that while yes, make & model obviously do make a difference, that extra 1/2 step does in fact change the horn's tonal complexity, and response.

 

[helen]

I knew, of course, that Leblanc imported a number of Yanis stamped "Martin" - were any of those baritones? I've only ever heard of tenors and altos. (At that point the "Martin" brand was truly circling the drain; and Leblanc had the Vito and Noblet brands - so Vito or Noblet baritones could have been made by Yani, Beaugnier, or Yamaha (not sure if this last one ever happened, either)). I know I'm getting the timing of those different stencils all mixed up.

It looks as if a VERY rough timeline would be something like:

~1950 Selmer BA low A
~1958 Beaugnier-made Noblet
~1958 Dolnet
~1961 Martin Magna low A (rarer than hens' teeth)
~1968 Conn 11M (add-on cylindrical section)
~???? Buescher 400/Bundy/Selmer USA low A (add-on cylindrical section)
~late 60s Yamaha
~ late 60s Yanagisawa
~ 1970s sometime Vito baritones made by Yanagisawa
~ late1970s sometime, possibly, Yani baritones stamped as "Martin"

It is my distinct impression that in the US (where rock and roll was invented), the Noblet, Dolnet were not common at all. Also, I don't recall any Yamaha saxophones being common until the late 70s (I'm sure this is regional, if one were in NYC or LA it might have been quite different).

Where are all the manufacturers from German-speaking regions in your list?

Keilwerth and their stencils like Couf?
B&S
Weltklang
etc etc?

Asking for a friend. 😉