Saxophones Low Bb vs low A baritones.

[Tonehole]

Well, I've been playing low Bb baritone since 1984 and I have to say the "large tenor" comment makes absolutely zero sense to me. If you try to play baritone sax like it's a large tenor you'll end up with a weak uninteresting sound, strange intonation, and difficulty in completing phrases musically.

As I said earlier, when I hvae a chance to give a spin to a low A, it plays not that much differently than my low Bb except of course for that extra note. That doesn't mean they're all the same, for sure.

The video reviewer states "it feels like a large tenor" to him. Plus even though it is not that much less weight it feels much lighter than an A. I am not built like Leo P and few of us are. This replicates my experience and thoughts so different for different players. I guess it depends on your approach and who is blowing.😎

I can play a baritone like it is a baritone but when I solo or free play it is old habits. I never spent time learning to copy bari solo pieces so they are not ingrained like tenor. So Trane, Brecker and others.

After years of instruction, practice and preforming classical and jazz on alto I still don't consider myself an "Alto player". I am very good on the instrument and can go toe to toe with buddies who are alto players. But I still have a mix of tenor concept in my approach when free playing. I preform a lot of DJ sax and House dance parties on the instrument.

Playing the C Melody is a challenge at present as it feels kinda like an alto and a little like a tenor so I am still working on my approach to the instrument to find the perfect balance. I am playing an alto piece with tenor reeds at present on the Aquilasax that Squealer overhauled for me. I sent my Chinese C Mel to him to tweak just this week. I have done a few gigs on the Aquilasax the past month so getting comfortable..

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ1h1-ryeZI


This fellow rocks he could do cocktails on it and he is honking on a Brilhart Level-Air! My Berg Boat table is smoother, I am inspired and may give it a try.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a6TY7EC9gU&t=5s

The horn sold an hour after he posted this vid. One guy commented on the thumb rest location being bad. I had mine moved on my SBA and a modern adjustable hook installed. I retained the original hook and no sign of the move on the horn..

Saxophone is limited by the player, ones imagination and ability.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhCraiwWNkM


Have at it. 🤗

 

[thomsax]

I don't think Yama or Yani ever made one

Yani did. A Yani low Bb was for sale here in Sweden for some months ago. I think it was bases on the B6 model.

Guy claims for motown and classic soul that Low A soundcwas there, but as previously noted by other respondents here, the Motown era likely used Low Bb's far, far more than the less reacily available A's . Unless all classic motown era hits with bari parts ....were post-1966???

And lots of the classic Motown/soulbari parts/solos were played by Mike Terry who played a Dolnet to low low Bb. When Motown moved to LA I think a guy (Williams???? I'm not sure ... ) who played in Count Basie bb played bari on Motwon recording and he played low A. He also toured with Ike and Tina.Turner. Motown in MI the horns were more out in the front, LA it was more in the background. The music changed.

 

[JayeNM]

Yani did. A Yani low Bb was for sale here in Sweden for some months ago. I think it was based on the B6 model.

That would make sense, actually. Yani evolved their modern horns after first knocking off vintage American ones...so, yeah, them having offered a LowBb once upon a time is quite understandable....

 

[Tonehole]

Apparently there may be one or two in the wild but they were never actually released.

 

[JayeNM]

Apparently there may be one or two in the wild but they were never actually released.

Well...one escaped at least and made its way to Sweden 😎

 

[JayeNM]

But the 880 series is later than the B6 series, so maybe Thom's was an older model...

 

[Stocker]

Exactly...Conn 11m only appeared in '68....I do not think Keilwerth/Couf or Weltklang or Pierret or Beaugnier or Martin came out with one MUCH sooner. Earliest Magna low A seems to be around then, too

So that maybe left the VI as the most commonly available low A option prior to '65ish????

I tend to agree...again...how much tonal change or intonational change is really gonna happen due to a slightly longer bellpiece and the most REMOTE additional tonehole ?

I suspect folks are actually comparing different BRANDS of low A to low Bb....i.e. comparing a Yani low A to a JK low Bb and concluding "mmmmm...something in the tone or 'punch' of the Bb is nicer" or vice-versa.....is not worth much...since it introduces several other variables beyond the extra key...

The Magna baritone came out in 1961, and Noblet and Dolnet both had low A baris available at least as early as 1958.

 

[thomsax]

But the 880 series is later than the B6 series, so maybe Thom's was an older model...

"Corton Deluxe" by Yanagisawa S6 and B6 were sold here in Sweden in mid 70's. and they started to sell under thier own name around 1978.

 

[PigSquealer]

And here I thought I left a proper straight line dangling and no one came up with the naughty punchline. Yet.

I was waiting for @Martysax to post his response. Sadly none 😒

 

[PigSquealer]

WOW ! @Pete Thomas
I just red and replied here to post #81. The last post I could see.
The thread I’m guessing refreshed….and some time after rebooting the missing / lost posts from a few days ago.

 

[Martysax]

And here I thought I left a proper straight line dangling and no one came up with the naughty punchline. Yet.

Point screw? After enough whisky.

 

[turf3]

The Magna baritone came out in 1961, and Noblet and Dolnet both had low A baris available at least as early as 1958.

Yes, but those were new horns, and not cheap. The guys who started rhythm and blues (which turned into horn-based rock and roll) in the late 1940s would only have had the Selmer available, and they'd have been new ones mostly, and expensive as all get out. Most of these guys were Black musicians in the South; unless they got into a really successful band, they were mostly going to be playing instruments they'd bought used.

What I see from videos of jump blues, R&B, and early rock, I think (because I haven't been taking a census), is a gradual increase in the use of the low A baritone over the years (as the musicians got the finances together to afford them, and as used ones began eventually to come on the market), until you reach today's situation where rock and roll horn section players almost always use the low A, the vast majority of all commercial players use the low A, all the classical guys use the low A, and the holdouts are a few players who prefer the low Bb for their own personal reasons. Or, like me, they bought a good used low Bb and have never since been able to make the business case for buying a low A horn.

 

[Tonehole]

"Corton Deluxe" by Yanagisawa S6 and B6 were sold here in Sweden in mid 70's. and they started to sell under thier own name around 1978.
View attachment 38445

So Yani started building the B6 in 1967. It was the first Japanese made Low A baritone.
YBS 61 Low a was launched in 1969. They made a Low Bb YBS 32 & 52 in 1984 = Purple logo. Super rare.
Yani made Vito Low A baritones in the 70's as well.

Apparently Yani never released a Low Bb baritone for sale. So if one was seen in Finland it was a proto that did a jail break!

Corton Deluxe: Highly sought-after stencil versions of the B-6 layout built for the European market.
Vito VITO B6: A very common North American stencil counterpart that is mechanically identical to the early Japanese Yanagisawa B-6
Matin: Some later vintage stencils from the 1980s resemble Yanagisawa's upgraded 880 professional baritone series.

 

[turf3]

View attachment 38451
So Yani started building the B6 in 1967. It was the first Japanese made Low A baritone.
YBS 61 Low a was launched in 1969. They made a Low Bb YBS 32 & 52 in 1984 = Purple logo. Super rare.
Yani made Vito Low A baritones in the 70's as well.

Apparently Yani never released a Low Bb baritone for sale. So if one was seen in Finland it was a proto that did a jail break!
Corton Deluxe: Highly sought-after stencil versions of the B-6 layout built for the European market.
Vito VITO B6: A very common North American stencil counterpart that is mechanically identical to the early Japanese Yanagisawa B-6
Matin: Some later vintage stencils from the 1980s resemble Yanagisawa's upgraded 880 professional baritone series.

I knew, of course, that Leblanc imported a number of Yanis stamped "Martin" - were any of those baritones? I've only ever heard of tenors and altos. (At that point the "Martin" brand was truly circling the drain; and Leblanc had the Vito and Noblet brands - so Vito or Noblet baritones could have been made by Yani, Beaugnier, or Yamaha (not sure if this last one ever happened, either)). I know I'm getting the timing of those different stencils all mixed up.

It looks as if a VERY rough timeline would be something like:

~1950 Selmer BA low A
~1958 Beaugnier-made Noblet
~1958 Dolnet
~1961 Martin Magna low A (rarer than hens' teeth)
~1968 Conn 11M (add-on cylindrical section)
~???? Buescher 400/Bundy/Selmer USA low A (add-on cylindrical section)
~late 60s Yamaha
~ late 60s Yanagisawa
~ 1970s sometime Vito baritones made by Yanagisawa
~ late1970s sometime, possibly, Yani baritones stamped as "Martin"

It is my distinct impression that in the US (where rock and roll was invented), the Noblet, Dolnet were not common at all. Also, I don't recall any Yamaha saxophones being common until the late 70s (I'm sure this is regional, if one were in NYC or LA it might have been quite different).

 

[Grumps]

I'd have gone with this:

What's a point screw? A detractor... if it's a good one. Like when someone's going on about something they've never had in their hands... and it's pointed out.

 

[Tonehole]

Low Bb bari's were more likely priced out of the market as easier to just build one model for the manufactures than two. Plus musical requirements changing.

Like cars. It now costs more to buy a standard than an automatic just pricing due to scale and change the public’s appetite for what they want or think they need. But for car enthusiasts they prefer a standard and now the knowledgable new car buyers prefers a 10 speed auto but the manufactures prefer a CVT because it is the cheapest to build!

Yes a low A has has that wow factor with that big honk, easier to impress than with musicianship. Like a turbo on a car but the turbo is not much fun to drive unless you have the turbo kicking in.

Find me the video's of baritone players who prefer a Low A to the Bb? The ones I posted all stated they prefer the feel and sound of the Low Bb and they went into detail to explain why. The length and mass of the air column is harder to push on a Low A. Thus the statements that the Low Bb feels more like a tenor is more free blowing and feels lighter and easier to throw around when playing less fatiguing.

They also own Low A 's for professional work when required. So why do they not unload their low Bb?

Yes I agree if you are a only going to buy one bari and you are doing it to make money at the price and availability the Low A is the no-brainer. Why I got my YBS 62 while I owned a Low Bb. I would sell my YBS in a heart beat for the right price! Buy a cheaper Low A and bank the difference, but wont ever sell my Low Bb. 😎

 

[turf3]

Low Bb bari's were more likely priced out of the market as easier to just build one model for the manufactures than two. Plus musical requirements changing.

Like cars. It now costs more to buy a standard than an automatic...

I am talking about the 1950s, not now. The price of used low Bb baritones was lower than the price of new low A baritones. (It still is.)

 

[helen]

A healthy collection of lava lamps.

I've acquired a few more since then. 😉 I also have a neon sax clock. Very retro 60s in my MCM house.

BTW, I am in the process of transposing a number of our bari charts--mostly funk and the likes--for the bass. It will be nice to get bad boy out on shows semi-regularly again.

 

[Grumps]

BTW, I am in the process of transposing a number of our bari charts--mostly funk and the likes--for the bass.

Does anyone make a low A bass sax?

 

[helen]

Helen love your rule.

I was just in Vancouver for a gig I don't travel with my horns if I can avoid it these days. The booking agency set me up with a rental horn from L&M and it got me by.

I worked at L&M in Vancouver for a few years way back. My wife is from Langely. We moved back to Toronto because of real estate prices and lack of gigging and better job opportunities.

I am interested in your back story on your Bass sax if you care to share.
I must admit I have never seen or heard one in the wild! Cannot be many of any model or vintage here in Canada. How did you come to acquire it, what make and model? A black n gold Couf bari sounds tasty and a very rare beast as well.

That Bass must be tough to take to gigs. I use a Bam HighTech case for my YBS 62. I bought it new from L&M twenty plus years ago it was a good investment. I have a Walt Johnson for my Low Bb. Is your Bass in a coffin case?

Here is a comparison of a few Bari's. He comments that Low Bb plays like a large tenor which is how I view it as well.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyTPuRFKqE

Oh I so wish you would have reached out. DM me, and I'll send you my contact info. If you are ever out here again, we have to arrange to get together! If you come to my place, you can play vintage horns to your heart's content.

I will gladly tell you the story of my Couf bass. You will likely recognize its previous owner. The story is sad, but with a very happy ending. The Blackgold Couf comes with a very similar story. Sadly if we have high quality pro horns, they tend to outlive us.

I will fill in the blanks later. My bass is calling. Long tones & practice time. 😉