Playing the saxophone Let's talk about "blue notes"...

[Pete Effamy]

By choice, I mean that you wouldn’t dream of playing maj 7 chords in a basic blues (or most/any other) so why are they blue notes - they’re just the notes.

When, in a solo a player plays blues notes it means to me that say, over a C maj 7 he chose to play b3, b5 or b7 etc.

Those are blues notes to me. Not just the notes in the harmony of a blues.

 

[JSL]

I just found this thread and, being a blues player, find it interesting. So, I've resurrected it. Just for fun, and possibly to be somewhat informative, I'll add a few thoughts of my own on the topic. Starting with the major & minor pentatonic scales, including the 'blue notes'. I know they can be closely related to various chords, but I prefer to think of them as follows, and in relation to the tonic center. Keeping it simple and using a numerical formula:

Major pentatonic: 1 2 3 5 6. For the blue note, add the b3. (with the b3 added, you could call it the major blues scale *).
Minor pentatonic 1 b3 4 5 b7. Blue note, add the b5 (the minor 'blues scale', and the b3 & b7 are also blue notes)

* That 'major blues scale' is of course a minor blues scale with respect to the relative minor key, if you make the '6' the tonic.

Simply apply those formulae to whatever key center you are in. The real trick is in learning how to apply those pentatonic & blues scales in an effective way, using various rhythmic & melodic devices, The choices are almost infinite. The best approach is to listen closely to how the best blues players do it. One tip I'd suggest for the b5 blue note is to 'resolve' it downward a half step to the 4, within the melodic line. But there are many effective ways to use that note.

I like to mix the major & minor pentatonic & blues scales. Keep in mind when playing the major pentatonic in a blues you have to be careful about where you use the major 3. It won't sound good over the IV7 chord (I'm speaking of the maj 3 in the pentatonic, not the 3 of the IV chord). You could simply drop the major 3rd from the major blues scale and make it a different minor pentatonic: 1 2 b3 5 6. That will sound good anywhere in a blues. I like to use it mostly in a descending line: 6 5 b3 2 1 and variations on that 'theme'.

You can play a very effective solo over a blues or funk tune just using those pentatonic & blues scales. However, I prefer to work with the chords in the chord progression as well. One way to do this is to play the changes and alternate with pentatonic or blues scale lines. One example (of many possibilities) in a blues would be to play over the dominant chords in the first 4 bars, then switch to a minor blues scale over the IV7 chords, and back to the changes over the I7 & V7-IV7-I (or ii-V-I) changes. There are plenty of other choices using the pentatonic scales, blues scales, and chord changes.

Finally (this is going way longer than I intended), with regard to chord extensions, as discussed in a couple posts above, over any given dominant chord, the b3 would be #9, b5 would be #11, and 6 would be 13. Also, the 2 would be 9, often altered to b9. Most of that applies to the V7 chord in a jazz blues. Over a blues in C, the V7 chord is G7. Here's G7 with those extensions: G B D F Ab A# C# E (1 3 5 b7 b9 #9 #11 13). Obviously, you don't have to use all those extensions, or any of them for that matter, but they each provide a certain amount of tension. As a bonus, if you reorder those notes into a scale, it would be the "half/whole" diminished scale: G Ab A# B C# D E F. Hope that all makes sense and isn't too confusing.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thanks John, really good explanation. NB: resurrecting older threads is something we encourage here, especially when there's more to add or ask.

Major pentatonic: 1 2 3 5 6. For the blue note, add the b3. (with the b3 added, you could call it the major blues scale *).
Minor pentatonic 1 b3 4 5 b7. Blue note, add the b5 (the minor 'blues scale', and the b3 & b7 are also blue notes)

Many blues tunes and riffs rely on a switch between major and minor, you might say it is their schtick for want of a better word.

One very basic rule is:

You can (more or less) use the minor blues scale over all the chords of a basic blues. ie the scale on the tonic fits all the chords.
The major blues often works best when applied so the root of the scale is the root of the chord

This is because the ♭3 of the minor blues scale works as a flattened 3rd blue note on the tonic, and also the flattened 7th of the IV chord. BUT although the the major 3rd of the major blues scale works on the major 3rd of the tonic, but using the same (tonic) scale on the IV chord is a major 7 which doesn't sound great when the 7th of the chord is flattened.

Easier to grasp with an example in the key of C, especially if you re-order (invert) the notes of the the 1 chord (C) so you can see how the (♭)7 of the IV lines up next to the (♭)3 of the C

Root	C	chord degree	F	chord degree
Top note:	E	3	E♭	(♭)7
	C	1	C	5
	B♭	(♭)7	A	3
	G	5	F	1

So the E♭ of the C minor blues scale fits on the C chord even though the note is E (♮) as it is a blue note and so sounds bluesy. It also fits over the F chord as the E♭ is part of the chord anyway

However using a major 7 over a minor 7 does not sound bluesy, a better description might just be "plain wrong."

"What about the V7 chord" I hear you ask.

Yes the C minor blues also fits, but is harder to find a simple axplanation why the E♭ or C goes over G7, best thing is to play it and let your ears tell you.

 

[JSL]

Thanks Pete, for the added discussion and further clarification. One thing I should have emphasized more is the fact that all of this has to be 'tested' by your ears. It's really important to get the sound and "flavor" of those blue notes, as well as every other chord tone.

Yes the C minor blues also fits, but is harder to find a simple axplanation why the E♭ or C goes over G7, best thing is to play it and let your ears tell you.

I'd argue that you can 'get away' with more tension on the V7 chord, (especially if it's a V7-I cadence) so over G7, the Eb would function as a b13 and C as the (unaltered) 11. But as you say, using your ears is key. Note also that the b5 of the tonic, in this case F# (Gb), does work over the V7 chord even though it's a major 7th on G7. This time the maj7 of the chord is the 'blue note'. Confusing as hell, but the ear will tell you it works.

In addition, of course the maj7 can be used as a passing tone, on an upbeat, on any of the dominant chords. Such as in the bebop scale. But then you're getting into bebop jazz blues which might not be appropriate in a more down home 'gutbucket' blues. I do sometimes use a descending bebop scale over V7 if it's a ii-V-I line in a jump blues style. But not over the V7-IV7 "Chicago Blues".

 

[progger]

Some interesting stuff in here, folks, and some input that's probably very helpful to people working these things out.

I'll admit, the terms "blue note" and – especially – "blues scale" always irk me (undoubtedly a "me" problem). I understand they can be useful for pedagogical purposes. I think they also, unfortunately, have a bit of a reductionist effect on a massive musical tradition and vocabulary in the minds of a lot of students. When I work with students on concepts rooted in the blues, I always encourage them to internalize phrases and idioms rather than scales... and I like to start with any of the "Kings" of American blues (BB King, Freddie King, Albert King). With some serious aural musical context developed, the intellectualizations make a lot more sense.

Charlie Parker and Cannonball are great examples of high-level jazz saxophonists who were still basically always playing the blues, no matter how sophisticated their ideas were. In my other life as a pianist, Wynton Kelly, Herbie Hancock, and Kenny Kirkland are my go-to role models for it. But the concepts themselves are, I think, really well-demonstrated by blues guitarists, and that vocabulary translates well to saxophones (despite our inability to up-bend).

Students seem to often be able to hear and feel pitches coming from guitars oddly easily, too, regardless of which instruments they play themselves. (Maybe that's an American thing?)

 

[JSL]

When I work with students on concepts rooted in the blues, I always encourage them to internalize phrases and idioms rather than scales... and I like to start with any of the "Kings" of American blues (BB King, Freddie King, Albert King). With some serious aural musical context developed, the intellectualizations make a lot more sense.

Charlie Parker and Cannonball are great examples of high-level jazz saxophonists who were still basically always playing the blues, no matter how sophisticated their ideas were. In my other life as a pianist, Wynton Kelly, Herbie Hancock, and Kenny Kirkland are my go-to role models for it.

Right on, progger. This is why I mentioned (in passing; I maybe should have put more emphasis on it) the importance of listening to the best blues players. As in any musical genre, it's important to learn the 'vocabulary'. It's one thing to outline or analyze the music theory behind pentatonic scales, blues scales, blue notes, and chords. It's another thing to learn how to apply them. The way to do that is by listening to the music.

And yeah, Charlie Parker was a great blues player, even within the 'bebop tradition' using chromaticism for embellishment. He certainly used blue notes and notes from what we call the blues scale. I doubt that term existed back then. The name is just a short-cut, easier to say than 'minor pentatonic with a b5 added'. But of course, it's worth knowing that's what it is and also how it relates to the chords and overall harmony.

 

[progger]

For sure, and don't get me wrong, I am a nerd. Proud and shameless nerd. I'll talk about scales and chords and upper structure voicings all day.

I've noticed a weird tendency for a lot of younger jazz musicians to see the blues as "easy" or even "corny," which is a damn shame, and something I try to counter with great musical examples. It is, in fact, really damn hard to sound good playing the blues, and takes a lot of experience over a long period of time! And it's the foundation, or at least a significant part of the foundation, of an enormous amount of what we consider modern western music today.

 

[JSL]

I've noticed a weird tendency for a lot of younger jazz musicians to see the blues as "easy" or even "corny," which is a damn shame, and something I try to counter with great musical examples. It is, in fact, really damn hard to sound good playing the blues, and takes a lot of experience over a long period of time! And it's the foundation, or at least a significant part of the foundation, of an enormous amount of what we consider modern western music today.

Oh man, I'm with you 100% on that! And I'll bet most of those who say the blues is 'easy' don't play it very well. The blues is as deep as the ocean.

As to the 'proud and shameless nerd', stay tuned. I'm going to start up a new thread (under improvisation & music theory) on the connection between the diminished chord & scale to the dominant chord. Should be fun to try and make a post as concise as possible, but not sure I can keep it short enough.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I'd argue that you can 'get away' with more tension on the V7 chord, (especially if it's a V7-I cadence) so over G7, the Eb would function as a b13 and C as the (unaltered) 11.

In a V7 - 1 they don’t have to function as anything over this chord as the following 1 chord will “explain “ everything. Hence a repeated C would just be heard as anticipating the 1 chord.

The V7 “wearing” more tension is the whole basis of the Beboppers changing chord quality to V7s, especially from m7s.

I think the (vertical) function of a note (or a “belonging “) to the V7 rather than the 1 depends upon what the note is and what the notes around it are - you could be playing through the V7 and firmly in the 1 - also likely to bring tension before the resolution of the 1.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've noticed a weird tendency for a lot of younger jazz musicians to see the blues as "easy" or even "corny," which is a damn shame,

And older jazz musicians.

I o0mce had to teach jazz at university, and the guy I took over from gave me the advice. In the first week teach them how to play blues.

The thing is blues is very difficult both to play and teach, although the main thing for playing is just to steep yourself in blues music.To teach it (especially to students who already know basic theory) you first need to break all the preconceptions they have about music theory.

I heard some of the students who'd learned with the previous teacher, and there idea of blues was to run up and down a (minor) blues scales.

In a V7 - 1 they don’t have to function as anything over this chord as the following 1 chord will “explain “ everything. Hence a repeated C would just be heard as anticipating the 1 chord.

Great way of putting it.

On the topic of theory, you might all find this amusing:

Theory & Impro - Making Music Theory Simple (apologies to Yogi Berra)

Music theory is actually very easy. Yer Octave. (8 notes, 7 notes or 12 notes?) First learn a one octave scale. That word octave describes what we call an interval, which is basically the number of "steps" between the bottom and top note. The word octave comes from the latin meaning eight, so...

cafesaxophone.com

 

[Targa]

And older jazz musicians.

I o0mce had to teach jazz at university, and the guy I took over from gave me the advice. In the first week teach them how to play blues.

The thing is blues is very difficult both to play and teach, although the main thing for playing is just to steep yourself in blues music.To teach it (especially to students who already know basic theory) you first need to break all the preconceptions they have about music theory.

I heard some of the students who'd learned with the previous teacher, and there idea of blues was to run up and down a (minor) blues scales.

Great way of putting it.

On the topic of theory, you might all find this amusing:

Theory & Impro - Making Music Theory Simple (apologies to Yogi Berra)

Music theory is actually very easy. Yer Octave. (8 notes, 7 notes or 12 notes?) First learn a one octave scale. That word octave describes what we call an interval, which is basically the number of "steps" between the bottom and top note. The word octave comes from the latin meaning eight, so...

cafesaxophone.com

Link doesn't work, Pete.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Link doesn't work, Pete.

Should be fixed now.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The thing is blues is very difficult both to play and teach, although the main thing for playing is just to steep yourself in blues music.To teach it (especially to students who already know basic theory) you first need to break all the preconceptions they have about music theory.

I think it goes for all genres really. There was a guy at Leeds who could cover some Steps Ahead stuff very well. I once remarked to him that it was way beyond me, and he said the same back (at that time to a Dixieland clarinet player).

 

[JSL]

One other important thing about "the blues" is that it encompasses so many different blues styles. Everything from 'down home' country blues to swing blues, jump blues, Chicago blues, slow blues, blues funk, jazz blues, and the list goes on. Even within those styles there is a lot of variation. Those terms are kind of subjective, but I'd say Louis Jordan, Red Prysock, and Wynonnie Harris are 'jump blues' artists, but their styles are still pretty unique and different. In the jazz realm, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Dexter Gordon, Stanley Turrentine, and Gene Ammons (and every other jazz player for that matter) all played the blues, but they didn't sound the same on the blues by any means. Among guitarists, B.B. King, Albert King, Albert Collins, SRV, Long John Hunter, etc. all had their own unique sound and approach to the blues.

I could go on and on naming great blues players, but the point is, while the blues is very recognizable, it is highly versatile and can range from very 'basic' to very 'sophisticated' (if I can use that term). You can study and play it for a lifetime and still have plenty to learn.

 

[Pete Effamy]

One other important thing about "the blues" is that it encompasses so many different blues styles. Everything from 'down home' country blues to swing blues, jump blues, Chicago blues, slow blues, blues funk, jazz blues, and the list goes on. Even within those styles there is a lot of variation. Those terms are kind of subjective, but I'd say Louis Jordan, Red Prysock, and Wynonnie Harris are 'jump blues' artists, but their styles are still pretty unique and different. In the jazz realm, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Dexter Gordon, Stanley Turrentine, and Gene Ammons (and every other jazz player for that matter) all played the blues, but they didn't sound the same on the blues by any means. Among guitarists, B.B. King, Albert King, Albert Collins, SRV, Long John Hunter, etc. all had their own unique sound and approach to the blues.

I could go on and on naming great blues players, but the point is, while the blues is very recognizable, it is highly versatile and can range from very 'basic' to very 'sophisticated' (if I can use that term). You can study and play it for a lifetime and still have plenty to learn.

With the jazzers, I think there’s a difference. They play “over a blues” rather than playing the blues. Much of Parker’s recordings were over blues progressions or Rhythm Changes, yet despite playing over a blues it’s still Bebop, not Blues.

 

[JSL]

With the jazzers, I think there’s a difference. They play “over a blues” rather than playing the blues. Much of Parker’s recordings were over blues progressions or Rhythm Changes, yet despite playing over a blues it’s still Bebop, not Blues.

Ok, go to 2:05 on here where Bird comes in and try to tell me this is not the blues:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pesnDgKRkUQ


I could cite many other examples. There's plenty of blues played in a bebop style that is still the blues.

 

[progger]

Charlie Parker ABSOLUTELY played the blues. That was explicitly at the core of everything he did, and that was passed very effectively to Miles Davis, who prioritized the importance of the blues throughout his entire career, no matter what other information was folded into the music. And it's why Miles, in turn, loved the likes of Cannonball and Wynton Kelly so much.

 

[skeller047]

I’m loving this discussion. One thing being glossed over a bit is direction. In the V7 -> I progression (or whatever substitutes for I, or for that matter, the V7), people talk about extensions to the V7 - b9, #9, b13, demented 17th, what-have-you. The thing is, these notes are not just colorful flags running up the V chord flagpole. They are there because they have an inherent melodic direction. Just like the 3rd of the V leading to the root of the I, they all want to go somewhere.

The same is true of the “blue notes”. Lots of talented folks are saying you have to listen to the blues to understand how to use them. This is true - you have to know how to get to them, and where to go once you land there. In other words, these notes have direction. A mathematician might say they are vectors - these notes have a value and direction together.

Bottom line - people think that chords and scales are static, immovable things. But they aren’t - they are driven by melody. All this fancy harmonic junk we stick over bass lines and under melodies is just there because it sounds pretty in the context of the motion of the music. Music is motion, and when we forget that, we lose contact with the e-motion too.

 

[JSL]

I’m loving this discussion. One thing being glossed over a bit is direction. In the V7 -> I progression (or whatever substitutes for I, or for that matter, the V7), people talk about extensions to the V7 - b9, #9, b13, demented 17th, what-have-you. The thing is, these notes are not just colorful flags running up the V chord flagpole. They are there because they have an inherent melodic direction. Just like the 3rd of the V leading to the root of the I, they all want to go somewhere.

The same is true of the “blue notes”. Lots of talented folks are saying you have to listen to the blues to understand how to use them. This is true - you have to know how to get to them, and where to go once you land there. In other words, these notes have direction. A mathematician might say they are vectors - these notes have a value and direction together.

Bottom line - people think that chords and scales are static, immovable things. But they aren’t - they are driven by melody. All this fancy harmonic junk we stick over bass lines and under melodies is just there because it sounds pretty in the context of the motion of the music. Music is motion, and when we forget that, we lose contact with the e-motion too.

I had to quote your entire statement, skeller, because it makes so much sense. Well-stated! The b9 (on the V7 chord) really wants to move down a half step to the '5' of the I chord, for one example. And obviously the V7 chord and its related diminished chords (I just started a thread related to that) wants to move on to the I chord. And I guess in a V-IV blues, it gets there via the IV chord. The b5 wants to 'resolve' down a half step to the 4. And so on. Motion is a big part of the picture, so to speak.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Charlie Parker ABSOLUTELY played the blues. That was explicitly at the core of everything he did, and that was passed very effectively to Miles Davis, who prioritized the importance of the blues throughout his entire career, no matter what other information was folded into the music. And it's why Miles, in turn, loved the likes of Cannonball and Wynton Kelly so much.

Whilst I’m not disagreeing with blues elements in many jazzers playing, I don’t call this “playing the blues”. They’re blues phrases. And yes, Cannonball used a lot more than Parker, Chet Baker probably a lot more than Diz.

A pairing of BB King and Parker doing their usual thang might have resulted in another cymbal thrown to the floor (I wonder if there are quotes re BB King / Robert Johnson and Bebop).

We’re glossing over the usual title of Jazz Blues too - named to denote differences - namely extra changes, rather than moving around where IV and V go.

Brecker interjects some lovely bluesy phrases which sound amazing after all his usual language. He’s not a blues player though.