Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[Zasterz]

Elon's badge to success is his abilities as a general manager. Managers do not do hands on, his employees do. His secret is hiring good people, cultivating an environment of creativity and giving them proper direction and knowing his market. But, a competent manager know a bit about some of the inner workings of his products and services to do that.

We are drifting off-topic. If you want, I can start a DM, or, we can continue to discuss where appropriate.😎

My comment was only about whether it’s accurate to call him an engineer. Beyond that, I’m fine not getting into whether his “badge to success” is his abilities as a manager or rather his skill at legal shenanigans— in this thread or over DM.

 

[Pete Thomas]

We are drifting off-topic. If you want, I can start a DM, or, we can continue to discuss where appropriate.😎

Agreed, this is a good and useful music topic and so should stay on topic please.

 

[Grumps]

Back on topic then, to summarize: Learn to read music as it'll help you to get going. Develop the ability to learn by ear to open up opportunities.

We good?

 

[lydian]

Back on topic then, to summarize: Learn to read music as it'll help you to get going. Develop the ability to learn by ear to open up opportunities.

We good?

But I'm not a visual learner, so it's unfair and condescending to even suggest I try to read music.

Also I have a terrible ear, so it's unfair and condescending to even suggest I try to learn by ear.

 

[turf3]

Elon's badge to success is his abilities as a general manager. Managers do not do hands on, his employees do. His secret is hiring good people, cultivating an environment of creativity and giving them proper direction and knowing his market. But, a competent manager know a bit about some of the inner workings of his products and services to do that.

We are drifting off-topic. If you want, I can start a DM, or, we can continue to discuss where appropriate.😎

Yep. Whatever your personal opinion of Musk, his professional occupation is entrepreneur and company leader, not engineer. He clearly understands enough about engineering to lead his companies but that's not the same thing.

 

[turf3]

Again I point out that the pop-psych concept of "learning styles" as visual, auditory, etc., has no actual basis in fact or supporting data. It does, however, provide convenient excuses for people who struggle with certain material and don't want to dig in their toenails and bash away at it till they get it.

I should point out here that I'm not talking about people with actual disabilities. Obviously it's crazy to expect a blind person to learn things by reading printed text (in the absence of Braille).

 

[progger]

Forgive me if this ruffles a few feathers, but I do feel like I should share some perspective with context, as I perceive it, after many years working with students of all levels as well as years working in the music industry on a reasonably privileged level.

For hobbyists, amateurs, enthusiasts, normal folks in the music-making community – and eternal love and gratitude to you for keeping music in the world in a meaningful way – it's simply all good. Whatever works for you to learn, grow, and, most importantly, enjoy yourself.

For professionals, or serious students aiming to become professionals: if ears are not thoroughly developed, a career is not possible. Some reading abilities should be developed as appropriate to whichever segment of the industry in which one finds oneself. But if strong aural aptitude isn't developed, there is no prayer of success.

Regardless of how an individual musician learns and grows, music as a thing in the world is an auditory art form. Sure, there are folks working in the industry who do other (visually-oriented) things, like lighting, costumes, set design, etc, but they're not doing the music part of the music industry. The people doing the music part – the players, writers, arrangers, music directors, band leaders, etc – all need to have powerfully developed ears above all other skills. Melody, harmony, rhythm, form, these things need to be second-nature, thoroughly comfortable, easy to hear and recognize and execute and change as needed. This includes musicians in orchestras, concert bands, and jazz bands, assuming we're talking about full-time professional ensembles. You won't be playing in the London Philharmonic if you have trouble recognizing a major sixth vs a minor sixth.

TL;DR: In the world of professional music and professional musicians, ears > everything.

 

[JSL]

In the world of professional music and professional musicians, ears > everything.

Well-said progger. Your entire post is right on imo. And yes ears > everything. I actually think that applies both at the professional and amateur or 'semi-pro' level, though it's absolutely essential for a professional. As you stated, music is a auditory art.

 

[cappers]

I really would like to develop my aural skills with the aim to play stuff I know by ear rather than just by the dots. In the band situation I have to play the dots but otherwise I'd rather just play spontaneously and not have to worry about music sheets, stands, lighting.

I asked my teacher, who is very much a reader and is trying to get me to play by the dots correctly and fluently, but he admitted he doesn't really play by ear.

Fortunately the MD of our band is great at reading but generally plays by ear. He has offered to mentor me with some lessons. His words were "If you can't hear it, you can't play it".

I've read about singing the note then finding and playing it on the horn and although it's often 'hunt and peck' it is helping.

As a novice, I doubt I would have made much progress if I hadn't learnt to read and just tried to play by ear. However learning to read plus some background theory has given me enough 'musicality' to understand what I'm trying to achieve.

I've mentioned before that when soloing, simple as it is, I hear in my head what to play and my fingers respond. Yet unless it's a simple repetitive melody e.g. Tenor Madness, Watermelon Man, I can't play without the dots!? Maybe I'm asking for too much in one year?

 

[JSL]

Maybe I'm asking for too much in one year?

Probably so. Sounds like you're doing great after only one year. I emphasize the word "only" because one year is a very short time in terms of learning to play a musical instrument. Patience is one of the most important factors. And lack of patience is undoubtedly the main reason so many give up on music. It's a long journey. What's important is to embrace and enjoy the journey.

I'll add that learning to read music is very useful and is not necessarily going to hold you back from learning to play by ear. The one issue is the fact that reading music is visual: so, it's important to also use your ear even when reading. However, if you really want to play by ear you have to get away from the sheet music and work on developing your ear. Singing and then playing what you sing is a good way (even if you don't have a good singing voice, it still works), as is playing along with and transcribing (on your instrument) from a recording. With a recording, I like to listen to phrase, then sing it and finally play it. Even though I sing badly, that still works because by singing it I get it in my mind. Give that a go. Also work on identifying and singing intervals; that's very helpful to developing your ear.

 

[Pete Effamy]

But I'm not a visual learner, so it's unfair and condescending to even suggest I try to read music.

Also I have a terrible ear, so it's unfair and condescending to even suggest I try to learn by ear.

If you’re ever nil by mouth you’re properly buggered.

 

[lydian]

I've mentioned before that when soloing, simple as it is, I hear in my head what to play and my fingers respond. Yet unless it's a simple repetitive melody e.g. Tenor Madness, Watermelon Man, I can't play without the dots!? Maybe I'm asking for too much in one year?

Prerequisite to playing by ear is knowing your instrument inside and out. Knowing what a C feels like versus a G. Until you learn your instrument well enough to play any note the instant you hear it, playing melodies from memory or improvising by ear won't entirely work. It takes time to build up that mental framework in your mind. You can absolutely hone that skill by trying to play everything you hear by ear. Eventually you'll get better at it.

But like Progger said, it's ok for a hobbyist to not be a virtuoso in all things. Do what you can and what you enjoy. But don't worry if you never reach the level of a pro. That's ok.

Now what skills are essential in your band? Well, reading is pretty important in a group that plays written arrangements. So that's your top priority. Improv and ear playing is secondary.

 

[Wade Cornell]

There's still a presumption that everybody is the same in arguments that Turf3 makes. It's somewhat disputed by progger, yet do we think anyone can become a basketball star? How about an astrophysicist? We are not the same. Some have aptitudes and abilities that others don't. That's life. Hearing, understanding and playing music comes easily to me. Reading doesn't. However I'm dyslexic, so all reading is slow and typing (like this) requires spell check.

The attitude that anyone can play music (well) if they just take enough lessons, practice enough, and get an advanced degree in performance seems like a mug's game. The arts don't work that way and never have. I've previously stated the controversial challenge of naming a single great artist, composer, or musician who is world famous that first got a PhD in their field of renown. Not a singe one that I can recall. How does this mesh with the attitude of just try harder? An artist or musician with a PhD didn't try harder?

Do any of the arts require learning basics? Yes of course. You've got to be able to use the tools effectively, yet concentrating on that aspect doesn't make you a better artist, just a good technician. There is a gap that needs to be filled with talent. Trying harder won't make most of us 7 foot tall and a great basketball star. Even if you've got the height you may not have the coordination or reflexes. Becoming a great reader likewise doesn't mean that you can hear lines to play without reading them or confer the ability to play by ear. Unfortunately this describes a lot of classical players. It also leaves out many who wish to play jazz and improvise. Too many can only use jazz theory as they have no ability to hear what they play or spin melodies. Being an advanced technician does not = being good at any of the arts.

Thanks progger for jumping in.

 

[Pete Effamy]

if ears are not thoroughly developed, a career is not possible.

In my part time job of advocating for Mr D Evil, whilst I entirely agree with your post, I’m not sure about the definition of “ear player” in the title has been used for this purpose much of the time. I think that most have taken it to be with regard to improvising or learning (by ear) specific notes.

No ?

 

[cappers]

But like Progger said, it's ok for a hobbyist to not be a virtuoso in all things. Do what you can and what you enjoy. But don't worry if you never reach the level of a pro. That's ok.

At my age I have no illusions of reaching an advanced level, competence is my goal.

reading is pretty important in a group that plays written arrangements. So that's your top priority. Improv and ear playing is secondary.

Agree about reading and will continue to hone that skill.
In the band we are encouraged to develop our solo improv skills so I do need (and want) to work on that too.

 

[Targa]

If you’re ever nil by mouth you’re properly buggered.

Is that like using a suppository?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Is that like using a suppository?

A book suppository?

 

[Zasterz]

Just wanted to add a recommendation for the EarMaster ear training app for anyone who wants a systematic way to improve their ear playing. I used it for years with students of all ages and found it really useful. You can get a lot out of just the free version and just by working through that material, you’ll know if you want to keep going with it or if that’s enough.

Free versions

www.earmaster.com

 

[Grumps]

Prerequisite to playing by ear is knowing your instrument inside and out.

Along those lines, I've long said the most important scale is the chromatic one.

 

[skeller047]

I really would like to develop my aural skills with the aim to play stuff I know by ear rather than just by the dots.

If by the words “rather than” you mean “instead of”, which is the meaning I get, I think this points up the issue here completely. @turf3 has used the term “false dichotomy” when discussing this issue and I agree. It’s not one or the other, it’s both.

People think, when “reading dots”, that the activity is look at the printed music, translate internally to fingering(s) and blow. But that is not what written music is about. Musicians who play from a sheet are expected to know something about what the results of interpreting those symbols will sound like. This requires all kinds of what is called ear training.

When you learn by ear, are you just learning a set of activities you will do in order? Or are you learning the structure of the music you are playing? If the former, then when the singer calls the tune you know, but in a different key, you are hosed. If the latter, then you are truly internalizing the music.

I suggest not treating these two ways of playing and learning music (dots on paper vs. listening) as different. In either case, you have to have an understanding of what it is you are playing. And when performing you have to listen actively so you can mesh with the other musicians in heavenly harmony!

If you are playing any form of pop/rock/jazz you have to be able to pick things up by ear. Which means doing it all the time. Put on a song, play along, try to get it. Likewise with reading. Put up a sheet of music and try to play it. Work on fixing the parts you flub. With the rest of your practice time, work on your technique, get your scales and arpeggios down, work some patterns, play some etudes, etc.