Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[mpj.brennan]

I may be weird, but I find that if I learn a tune by ear, then when I play it I "feel" the notes - the fingers just go to the right places. However when I learn it from the dots, then when I play it from memory I see the dots in my mind's eye. It's as if two different parts of my brain are involved. What interests me is which process is more efficient, and which produces a more enduring memory. I think it's the former.

 

[Ivan]

To me there is something good about both the ear and the dots, but, just as @richardr pointed out, there's also the interaction in a band/group/ensemble/duo/get together or lesson

Lots of uninhibited playing to the record player helped me play by ear...to a point

I'm not good at all with dots but dots and chords tell me something of the inner workings of music... a way to comprehend (rather than feel) what I'm hearing

That third element, playing with others, is phenomenally instructive

 

[Bernie]

I wonder whether another beginner (not Jeanette - you're making progress from memory so don't be distracted) might have a go at St. James' Infirmary that I posted yesterday using a different approach: instead of relying on memory, you have the tune there and you can copy small groups of notes, perhaps even individual notes, pitch-for-pitch. It's a case of seeing what works and what doesn't, in the hope that we can build up a sort of "play by ear starter pack" to get other members on the road

Suppose somebody does take you up on this and learns St James Infirmary by tearing it into little pieces and learning each piece. Then what? Do they move onto the next piece they want to learn and tear that into little pieces too? And the next one? I just think you would be setting people off on the wrong path, they won't be playing by ear so they won't learn to play by ear.

 

[Ivan]

I may be weird, but I find that if I learn a tune by ear, then when I play it I "feel" the notes...when I learn it from the dots, then when I play it from memory I see the dots in my mind's eye. It's as if two different parts of my brain are involved...

Not weird

@mpjbiker said something similar in this thread...so that makes two of you!

Anyroad I think something similar happens to me too

A recent radio programme about a blind lad being taught echo-location said that his blind teacher had been scanned and even though the skill is aural, the parts of his brain that lit up were in the optic regions

It's not a big leap of faith to think that the brain might behave differently when playing by dots or by ear

 

[richardr]

Suppose somebody does take you up on this and learns St James Infirmary by tearing it into little pieces and learning each piece. Then what?

I don't know. It's an experiment to see if we can find a method that will help beginners like Jeanette and Gladsaxisme over the "CAN'T" barrier.

 

[Bernie]

Yeah, but you are trying to get them over the "can't play by ear" barrier by giving them a method that isn't playing by ear.

 

[richardr]

I'm not good at all with dots but dots and chords tell me something of the inner workings of music... a way to comprehend (rather than feel) what I'm hearing

Although I'm a long way off, I've a feeling that the "there" to which I aim to get will be when the theory and the feel merge into one.

 

[richardr]

Yeah, but you are trying to get them over the "can't play by ear" barrier by giving them a method that isn't playing by ear.

Does it matter? Perhaps to you as a play-by-ear purist it does, but not to me. I'm not a purist and I'll advocate any means that's going to help people like Jeanette and Gladsaxisme on the way to sharing my pleasure.
I was one of those who asked Taz to start a playing by ear thread but I never envisaged it as a vehicle to promote "ear" as superior to dots or whatever. In my view they're complementary rather than rival skills.

 

[Taz]

Suppose somebody does take you up on this and learns St James Infirmary by tearing it into little pieces and learning each piece. Then what? Do they move onto the next piece they want to learn and tear that into little pieces too? And the next one? I just think you would be setting people off on the wrong path, they won't be playing by ear so they won't learn to play by ear.

As I have said Bernie, there is no right or wrong way of learning a tune by ear. We all take in information in a different way. In fact, this is probably the way I do it. I may recognise the chorus of a tune first, so that's the piece that I'll learn first. I'll play around with a few notes until I get the gist of it. Then I'll add a bit more and a bit more until it really takes shape.

 

[Taz]

I was one of those who asked Taz to start a playing by ear thread but I never envisaged it as a vehicle to promote "ear" as superior to dots or whatever. In my view they're complementary rather than rival skills.

I certainly hope that this thread doesn't start a superiority war 😱 It would appear that the poll is actually quit interesting. , it's a shame that it doesn't tell me who voted for what! @Pete Thomas is there an option to see this? From my point of view, I'm quite jealous of those of you who can read the dots. It would certainly make my life so much easier! As it was pointed out, if you don't know a tune and have never heard it, you CAN'T play it! At least if you have theory under your belt, you can follow it depending on your skill level.
What I don't want to see in this thread is someone telling someone else that their method is wrong. How can it be? If it worked for them then it worked and that person is the proof that it worked.
Remember people, keep it friendly

 

[Pete Thomas]

it's a shame that it doesn't tell me who voted for what! @Pete Thomas is there an option to see this?

Yes, as it's a public poll you can see who voted. Click on the number of votes for each option and you see a list of the people.

I didn't vote as I don't rely on one or the other, I use both depending on context.

 

[richardr]

What I don't want to see in this thread is someone telling someone else that their method is wrong.

If a suggestion I make doesn't work I don't mind being told it's wrong, but let's give it a try before jumping to that conclusion.

 

[Alice]

I didn't cast a vote either as none seemed applicable for me. Even as a "play by ear" person I never said "never" to learning to read music, I just thought it was beyond my capabilities until learning the sax and having a great tutor.

 

[trimmy]

You can vote on two of the options

 

[Bernie]

As I have said Bernie, there is no right or wrong way of learning a tune by ear. We all take in information in a different way. In fact, this is probably the way I do it. I may recognise the chorus of a tune first, so that's the piece that I'll learn first. I'll play around with a few notes until I get the gist of it. Then I'll add a bit more and a bit more until it really takes shape.

Yeah, but you are already at the level where you can play a complete tune like American Pie straight off by ear. You will only tear the music into little pieces in order to "get" a part that is particularly tricky. But Richard is suggesting that people who can't play by ear at all should start by tearing the tune into chunks and learning the chunks.

I don't agree with you that there is no right and wrong way to learn to play by ear. For example, it would be wrong to try to learn to play by ear by reading from written music. And in my view it is similarly wrong to try to do it by tearing the music into chunks, as the starting point. In order to play by ear, you have to get the music into your head. Tearing it into chunks won't achieve that.

 

[Bernie]

If a suggestion I make doesn't work I don't mind being told it's wrong, but let's give it a try before jumping to that conclusion.

It's wrong in principle. You don't need to try it to know that.

 

[trimmy]

For example, it would be wrong to try to learn to play by ear by reading from written music

How would that work ? confused

 

[Colin the Bear]

People who can't play and don't teach, trying to teach people to play, is bound to have its problems. Isn't the internet great.

 

[Taz]

A good teacher must be able to adapt to a pupils way of learning. If I don't know a tune then I will learn it a bit at a time. I already knew American Pie, I've been singing along to it for years. When I first heard it back in the early 70's, I dare say that I only sung the chorus first as it would have stuck a little easier. I don't know St James's infirmary, so I will break it down into small chunks, yes, even at my ability, small chunks are easier FOR ME to learn.

 

[Nick Wyver]

How would that work ? confused

It wouldn't. It's a bit like saying it'd be wrong to try to learn playing by ear by baking a cake. It's not the same thing.