Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[richardr]

To me, this isn't playing by ear

I think it would be better to say that this isn't the whole of playing be ear. It's just a start. Jeanette said,
"Can we have a nice easy starter note for a Bb sax". I know where she's coming from because if I wanted to play something in a particular key, I used to need a start note and it's only now that I'm beginning to learn to work it out for myself. I hope Jeanette won't mind me telling that when I met her late last year, I had a go at getting her to play "Frere Jaque" by ear in any old key and she simply couldn't. What I've tried to do with the exercise I've set is get Jeanette and others like her to break that "CAN'T" barrier by providing the melody in a form that they can learn bit-by-bit and eventually play along. Obviously they have to play in the right key for it to work so I've given a "start" note. Sure, anyone can work that out for him//herself by playing different notes to find the one to match the recording, but I'm trying to encourage people to have a go so I've removed as many difficulties as I can. If Jeanette and others manage to play "St. James' Infirmary" by ear, the "CAN'T" barrier is broken and they can move on.
I want to move on as well so here's one for you, Taz, (or jbtsax or anyone else who knows) to answer: I'm asked on the spot to blow the head of a number to which I know the melody, but in an unfamiliar key (perhaps to accommodate a singer). How do I know where to start. (Just to make sure that no-one thinks I'm being asked to do this sort of thing, I'm not - yet, but I hope it will come.)

 

[jimmylh]

I want to move on as well so here's one for you, Taz, (or jbtsax or anyone else who knows) to answer: I'm asked on the spot to blow the head of a number to which I know the melody, but in an unfamiliar key (perhaps to accommodate a singer). How do I know where to start. (Just to make sure that no-one thinks I'm being asked to do this sort of thing, I'm not - yet, but I hope it will come.)

This is where knowing your scales comes in. If the song starts on the 3rd or 5th. It will be the same on another key. Thinking in numbers instead of notes.

 

[Bernie]

I want to move on as well so here's one for you, Taz, (or jbtsax or anyone else who knows) to answer: I'm asked on the spot to blow the head of a number to which I know the melody, but in an unfamiliar key (perhaps to accommodate a singer). How do I know where to start. (Just to make sure that no-one thinks I'm being asked to do this sort of thing, I'm not - yet, but I hope it will come.)

In case it isn't already clear I am a play-by-ear extremist, I am only now making a serious effort to learn the names of the notes on the sax, and I'm really only doing that because I am being asked to do "that sort of thing" and it is mildly embarrassing to have to ask somebody else to play the first note of a tune so that I know where to start.

If I'm not being called on to play the head but just to solo, I have been known to sneak off to the back of the stage to blow very quietly and find a starting note that way. Not professional, but I have no desire whatsoever to be a professional.

 

[richardr]

This is where knowing your scales comes in. If the song starts on the 3rd or 5th. It will be the same on another key. Thinking in numbers instead of notes.

And how do I know how that a tune starts on a 3rd or a 5th. (I have a way that usually works but I'd like to know how it's done properly and reliably. This isn't just me being argumentative: I'm already at the stage where I'm having to find the right start note. At present I'm in a position to check and double check the result to make sure that I don't drop a clanger but the time's going to come when I can't.)

 

[jimmylh]

And how do I know how that a tune starts on a 3rd or a 5th. (I have a way that usually works but I'd like to know how it's done properly and reliably. This isn't just me being argumentative: I'm already at the stage where I'm having to find the right start note. At present I'm in a position to check and double check the result to make sure that I don't drop a clanger but the time's going to come when I can't.)

Well, you would have to have some point of reference to start with. Either the sheet music melody, or knowing what key the song is in, what the first chord is.... something.

 

[Bernie]

And how do I know how that a tune starts on a 3rd or a 5th. (I have a way that usually works but I'd like to know how it's done properly and reliably. This isn't just me being argumentative: I'm already at the stage where I'm having to find the right start note. At present I'm in a position to check and double check the result to make sure that I don't drop a clanger but the time's going to come when I can't.)

It's not really a significant issue though Richard: if you are in a position where the singer wants to change the key immediately before the performance, it can't be the kind of performance where you are expected to get everything off to a slick start without some discussion.

 

[Targa]

Apologies for the late responses I had to go the vet.

I don't know if your referring to me about the hearing aids,but I am in full stereo in that regard and I'm never really sure if it does affect my recognition of notes in anyway but I know I can tell if some one sounds off key but I'm never sure if my own playing is on or off key all the time without the use of a tuner

Yes, I was referring to you @gladsaxisme, left it to you to mention it.
If you do manage to learn it could you turn one off and hear what happens.

I don't have this problem so perhaps what I have to say may be unhelpful but I'll try.
I don't think you can be absolutely tone-deaf, or how could you play sax at all - are you related to Ludwig van Beethoven? I wonder whether sort of re-training your ear would work? I don't know how except that you might try listening with the sheet music in front of you.
Another thought: when you're playing along, whether to a backing track or to a melody, the recorded music must be loud enough for you to hear it over your own playing.

How would you define tone deaf? Can't distinguish between low Bb and high F# or just B and Bb.
Related to LvB only on the side of my second cousin twice removed mother in law's ginger tom.
I play from sheet music with some improv thrown in, I can hear what I'm doing and tell if it sounds discordant, that bits called free jazz. If I think a note is a bit out I quickly slide on to the next one to hope it's better, this is how grace notes were invented. The first person to do it said 'Gracious, they didn't notice'.
I don't play to backing tracks, that would only annoy the neighbours more.
The point is not what I'm doing then but trying to imitate something else that I can't make out.
Going back to the Westminster 4 note chime, I can't tell if the notes go up or down just by listening to them. To imitate them on sax I would have to just start 'well above and below' and chop it 'til it got there.

That doesn't sound right to me (!), I don't believe the stereo effect has any relevance to the detection of pitch, I think you can do this just as well with one ear as two.
Can you sing Baa Baa Black Sheep in tune?

I don't know if I'm right or not. One ear or two, have you tried? Although as you can do it so well anyway it might not make difference to you.
Allowing for my singing being like Jeremy Hardy on a bad day, I might be 'singing' in tune but I still wouldn't know if two close notes are up or down, of course I could exaggerate it until obvious.

I don't think anybody has this problem!

Damn, I could of sworn I have.

In case it isn't already clear I am a play-by-ear extremist,

Don't worry, even I can hear that.

 

[Bernie]

I don't know if I'm right or not. One ear or two, have you tried? Although as you can do it so well anyway it might not make difference to you.

I can't switch my ears on and off. If I put a finger in one ear that only cuts down the sound, doesn't stop it completely. If I was singing I would be able to hear the sound through my body, it would go into both ears.

Damn, I could of sworn I have.

You may have difficulty recognising intervals, but it isn't because you are only hearing with one ear. That's not how hearing works.

 

[richardr]

How would you define tone deaf?

My cat's tone deaf. Even if she doesn't appreciate my playing, she ought to like Coleman Hawkins.
Seriously, sorry I replied when I didn't understand the problem.

 

[richardr]

where you are expected to get everything off to a slick start without some discussion

The guys in the band who allow me to sit in seem to manage OK. I'll ask them. What I'm doing is mentally going through do, ray, me etc. until I find the one that fits the start note of the song. That tells me that the start note is, say, a 3rd above the tonic and from there I can work out the note I need in the requisite key. It's not foolproof but I'm getting better at it. I wouldn't like to launch into a solo on that basis without first checking and double checking that I have the right note.

 

[Nick Wyver]

So have you been taught to play by ear by a teacher? How did that work?

I didn't have any lessons until I'd been playing for about ten years. Then I had some to help get me through grade 8. Right from the very beginning, though, I've played from dots, improvised and played by ear.
With the very few people I've taught that have been extremely reluctant to attempt to read music there is still plenty to teach.

if you are in a position where the singer wants to change the key immediately before the performance, it can't be the kind of performance where you are expected to get everything off to a slick start without some discussion.

Oh, yes it can. 🙂

 

[Bernie]

The guys in the band who allow me to sit in seem to manage OK. I'll ask them.

Ok, well do report back!

What I'm doing is mentally going through do, ray, me etc. until I find the one that fits the start note of the song. That tells me that the start note is, say, a 3rd above the tonic and from there I can work out the note I need in the requisite key.

Doesn't make sense to me. If you haven't heard the first note or chord, how do you know what note fits?

 

[richardr]

Doesn't make sense to me.

Nor to me, but it usually works. I wonder whether it's a subconscious recognition of where the start note lies in relation to the tune overall. Anyway, give it a try. It might work for you as well. But don't rely on it when you play in public unless you've double-checked the result.

 

[Targa]

My cat's tone deaf. Even if she doesn't appreciate my playing, she ought to like Coleman Hawkins.
Seriously, sorry I replied when I didn't understand the problem.

No need for an apology, your response was reasonable or reasoned.
I did wonder at what point would being not good at music be called tone deaf by anyone.

 

[Targa]

I can't switch my ears on and off. If I put a finger in one ear that only cuts down the sound, doesn't stop it completely. If I was singing I would be able to hear the sound through my body, it would go into both ears.
You may have difficulty recognising intervals, but it isn't because you are only hearing with one ear. That's not how hearing works.

If you play with one finger in your ear does it improve your sax playing?
Can you describe how hearing works better than the doctors I've been seeing for over 10 years?

 

[richardr]

Listen to the singer, as Colin advises, and try to mimic their timing. Sinatra is a great example, holding notes longer than normal, pausing before a note should be sung. Listen to him at work, the man was a genius!

Copying Sinatra in this way is beyond me - at present. Yesterday I tried to play "The Old Rugged Cross" to recordings by a couple of jazz bands and failed utterly because I couldn't mimic the timing of either. But I'll keep on trying.

 

[Bernie]

Can you describe how hearing works better than the doctors I've been seeing for over 10 years?

They didn't tell you that being deaf in one ear would affect the ability to detect pitch, in a similar way that being blind in one eye would affect the ability to detect distance, because that isn't how hearing works.

 

[jbtsax]

Of course there is. If you sing Ba Ba Black Sheep to a child and the child sings it back accurately they have a non-theoretical understanding of intervals. It's the same for most adult singers, they have never learned anything about 4ths and 5ths, tones and semitones.

That is an interesting position, that parroting or mimicking a tune demonstrates a non-theoretical understanding of intervals. By that reasoning a child parroting a word spoken by a parent demonstrates a non-alphabetical understanding of how it is spelled and whether it is a noun, verb, adjective, or adverb.

 

[Bernie]

That is an interesting position, that parroting or mimicking a tune demonstrates a non-theoretical understanding of intervals. By that reasoning a child parroting a word spoken by a parent demonstrates a non-alphabetical understanding of how it is spelled and whether it is a noun, verb, adjective, or adverb.

Your analogies don't quite work for reasons that would be tedious to explain. It is the case however that children and adults who have not received any instruction do have a non-theoretical understanding of whether a word is a noun, a verb, an adjective or an adverb, which they demonstrate by using words appropriately.

 

[jbtsax]

What a fascinating discussion this has turned out to be with so many diverse viewpoints that all all equally valid for each individual's style of learning and playing.

I want to emphasize one other aspect that is closely related to both reading music and playing music "by ear". That is knowing the geography of your instrument. By that I mean the ability to play all of the major and minor scales and arpeggios from memory along with the chromatic scale the full range of the instrument.

I know that sounds like a tall order, but like "eating an elephant" it can be accomplished one bite at a time. Take one scale a week. In twelve weeks you have all the major scales and you also know your natural minor scales automatically by starting on la instead of do. Once your fingers know these note patterns, playing by ear, improvising, sight reading, etc. all become much more doable and enjoyable. In fact I'm going out on a limb and say folks who skip this part are those who are learning to play music on the saxophone the hard way.