Playing the saxophone "Learn the tunes so you don't need to (read) music"

[Ivan]

Barry sounds like my kind of teacher

It was he who told me to play sax when I asked his advice about choosing from the woodwind I liked best; sax and bassoon

He foresaw needing a sax in the school band where he eased me in on cymbals, count 64 bars, crash once. That improving musical education didn't last many terms either... But the experience helped me count

 

[wakyct]

To achieve what?

I think @cappers wants to memorize tunes because he feels his playing is more fluid when he's not reading.

I'm guessing his band rehearses so many tunes it's not possible to memorize them all. So maybe choosing 3 of the most common/favorite ones to get down is a good compromise.

Probably that would take a month? Then move on to the next few.

You might forget the first few in the interim but I'd wager they'll be easier to re-memorize later.

 

[lydian]

@cappers
Memorizing every tune is an admirable goal. But virtually nobody in a reading band does that. It's just not practical or necessary. You need to get better at reading the dots so it does sound natural, fluid and effortless.

If you want to memorize a lot of standards to play on your own, that's certainly doable. But I think attempting to memorize everything in your current group or groups like it is the wrong direction to go.

I think Pete's comment was aimed at a solo player, which doesn't really fit your current band situation. However, memorizing at least the chord changes to the solo sections is a very good thing to do and not terribly difficult.

 

[cappers]

To achieve what?

Sometimes, when alone or if I want to play for someone, I would like to just pick up the sax and play a known song. Not set up the music stand, find the sheet, and play reading the notes.

I think @cappers wants to memorize tunes because he feels his playing is more fluid when he's not reading.

I'm guessing his band rehearses so many tunes it's not possible to memorize them all. So maybe choosing 3 of the most common/favorite ones to get down is a good compromise.

Yes @wakyct that too. Ditto your guess!

I can play Tenor Madness, Autumn Leaves and a couple of others mostly without the dots and that is through repetition plus a liking for them.

It's not a case of 'Out, damned dot' (sorry Will) but rather not being dot-dependent.

 

[cappers]

@cappers
Memorizing every tune is an admirable goal. But virtually nobody in a reading band does that. It's just not practical or necessary. You need to get better at reading the dots so it does sound natural, fluid and effortless.

If you want to memorize a lot of standards to play on your own, that's certainly doable. But I think attempting to memorize everything in your current group or groups like it is the wrong direction to go.

I think Pete's comment was aimed at a solo player, which doesn't really fit your current band situation. However, memorizing at least the chord changes to the solo sections is a very good thing to do and not terribly difficult.

Thanks @lydian

No wanting to memorise everything in the band, but definitely some songs I love and would want to play for me. And stuff the band doesn't cover.

My reading is fairly good now but there is still a hesitancy at times but I'm sure with time and practice it will improve and become more fluid. I couldn't read a note a year ago.

Bit of a muddle over Pete's comment, mistake to use it as a shoe-in to my question.

 

[mizmar]

Sometimes, when alone or if I want to play for someone, I would like to just pick up the sax and play a known song. Not set up the music stand, find the sheet, and play reading the notes.

Fair enough. IMHO the thing to do is start at one end and proceed till you reach the end.
Pick a song. Learn it, bit by bit, day after day. Then the next one, playing the first as well, then the next, playing the second and the first, with frills and fills etc, and onwards... One phrase after another

 

[MikeMorrell]

In my experience it's not an either/or but a combination, which is what I meant in the post that was quoted. You don't need to read music was in one specific context and not meant to mean there is no need to have the ability to read music. As if one is an alternative to, or can replace, the other.

Without the ability to either:

• Go on stage and and read a part that's given to you and play it as if you weren't struggling to read the notes
• Go on stage (in a horn section) and play a 50 song set without having any music in front of you

I would not have lasted long as a pro musician.

Hi @cappers, good question which has received great responses so far! The one above from @Pete Thomas and the one below from @lydian correspond the most with my personal (amatuer Big Band) experience.

Memorizing every tune is an admirable goal. But virtually nobody in a reading band does that. It's just not practical or necessary. You need to get better at reading the dots so it does sound natural, fluid and effortless.

We're both amateur musicians who play in similar bands. For me, both reading music (along with my personal notes) and 'music memory' (and for some sections 'muscle memory') are all equally important.

IMHO, the keys to playing more fluently are not to discard sheet music - and your notes - completely (why would you?) but to learn to use sheet music (and your notes) more as a 'map' and 'memory aid'. For music that you've already learned, practiced/rehearsed and made notes on how best to play certain sections.

The main key (as @Pete Thomas suggested) is to become more familiar with a piece and: learn to recognize and play 'phrases' (and, I would add certain 'tricky' sections), rather than solely relying on sight-reading 'note-for-note' or 'bar for bar'.

IHMO, relying too much on sight-reading 'note for note' or 'bar for bar' leads to a more 'stiff' or 'stilted' performance than necessary. With, perhaps, a 'learned habit' that you feel unable to play the next notes until you've first read them. Whereas (usually) people are quite capable of gradually learning to play a (recognized) section or phrase of music with sheet music as a 'memory aid'.

TBH, there are a couple of my Big Band numbers that I sometimes forget how they sound. But when we start playing, I suddenly remember 'Oh, it's this one'. At the top are my notes (in pencil) such as 'laid back', 'driving', etc. In my tenor sax part, I also make notes (for example about how best to play a b♭ in a 'run', indications from our MD on dynamics, etc). And I also highlight anything I need to remember (dynamic markings that I might otherwise not not notice, key signature changes, etc.) . So I would be totally 'lost' without my sheet music + notes.

The same applies to my 'Blues/Rock/Pop' band. We too have a repertoire of about 30 songs. But we have no sheet music, just lyrics + (guitar) chords.. And although I've learned to mentally translate guitar (concert C) chords into tenor sax (B♭) scales, there's no way that I could remember all the different 'fills' and solos that I - together with the trumpet player - individually or usually as 'horn section' play on each song. Again. I make notes:

- on which numbers which of us plays what and when​

- the 'key notes' on harmonizing (pitch and rhythm) with the trumpet player on a few number​

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So bottom line, my advice is to let @Pete Thomas's and @lydian's advice sink in.​

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That said, I have some prior experience in 'Learning'. And I know that different people have different 'learning preferences'. I have full confidence that you'll pick out the responses that best help you best move forward 🙂.​

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[cappers]

Thank you @MikeMorrell

I muddied the waters a bit by misquoting Pete, I didn't mean to infer that the ability to read is not necessary or Pete meant that.

The sentiment was my playing when reading is more stilted than when 'noodling' or attempting to improvise or play along.

As it happens I have learnt more than I realised and for a few songs, the music sheet is a more of a guide if I get lost. Songs that a few months ago were hard for me to play are becoming easier and more fluent so I guess with more repetition and listening those might settle in my brain too.

play 'phrases' (and, I would add certain 'tricky' sections), rather than solely relying on sight-reading 'note-for-note' or 'bar for bar'.

Originally I tried to play a whole song through over and over which just reinforced my mistakes. Breaking it up and playing the phrases and motifs and tricky bits until fluent it becomes embedded eventually and I can see the patterns better.

All good advice. I'm too impatient!

 

[lydian]

I just want to add that as a frequent sub in several bands, I often have to sightread the whole show. So making that sound natural and effortless and free of mistakes is essential, otherwise I won't get called back. Even if you may never have to sightread a gig like me, one of your goals as a competent musician should be to make your reading/sight-reading sound as good as if you had memorized the tune. This really pays dividends in terms of practice efficiency and overall musicianship.

@cappers
I'm glad to hear you've discovered practicing in small chunks. That's a great strategy.

 

[Dr G]

It’s really not so different that learning to read the written word. As one becomes more adept at developing and incorporating vocabulary, reading becomes more fluent. In the context of music, that vocabulary includes scales, arpeggios, and common rhythmic patterns. As one reads more and more, fewer things are new, surprising, or enormously difficult. Making music becomes norm. Remember the transition when you were young and learning to read? For many, the early struggle was just sorting out letters, with experience we learn to recognize whole words. Eventually, we become adept at interpreting the intent of the written passage and learn to add emphasis when reading out loud to an audience.

P.S. and OBTW, “sight-reading” as @lydian uses the phrase, means reading and playing material without previous rehearsal - on first sight. “Reading the dots” is just “reading”.

 

[Pete Effamy]

It’s really not so different that learning to read the written word. As one becomes more adept at developing and incorporating vocabulary, reading becomes more fluent. In the context of music, that vocabulary includes scales, arpeggios, and common rhythmic patterns. As one reads more and more, fewer things are new, surprising, or enormously difficult. Making music becomes norm. Remember the transition when you were young and learning to read? For many, the early struggle was just sorting out letters, with experience we learn to recognize whole words. Eventually, we become adept at interpreting the intent of the written passage and learn to add emphasis when reading out loud to an audience.

P.S. and OBTW, “sight-reading” as @lydian uses the phrase, means reading and playing material without previous rehearsal - on first sight. “Reading the dots” is just “reading”.

I was about to write similar until I came to your post - in that reading music gets to a point where not only can you hear the notes in your head, but you know what the style is and what the inflections will be too, just as an actor / orator can bring to life a piece of text.

 

[Wade Cornell]

I was about to write similar until I came to your post - in that reading music gets to a point where not only can you hear the notes in your head, but you know what the style is and what the inflections will be too, just as an actor / orator can bring to life a piece of text.

Great music readers that I've known (mostly classical) all had this ability. It's something I've always admired, however as an extreme audio learner/type I found it impossible although I've always been able to spin melodies, harmonies, etc. Having a balance of both is ideal. Make the most of whatever you've got.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Great music readers that I've known (mostly classical) all had this ability. It's something I've always admired, however as an extreme audio learner/type I found it impossible although I've always been able to spin melodies, harmonies, etc. Having a balance of both is ideal. Make the most of whatever you've got.

Yes absolutely. The reading / impro / memorized thing have their place in certain situations and can overlap or not. Mostly each are used as they are the best solution in a certain situation. Or cost-effective!

 

[JSL]

It’s really not so different that learning to read the written word. As one becomes more adept at developing and incorporating vocabulary, reading becomes more fluent. In the context of music, that vocabulary includes scales, arpeggios, and common rhythmic patterns. As one reads more and more, fewer things are new, surprising, or enormously difficult. Making music becomes norm. Remember the transition when you were young and learning to read? For many, the early struggle was just sorting out letters, with experience we learn to recognize whole words. Eventually, we become adept at interpreting the intent of the written passage and learn to add emphasis when reading out loud to an audience.

P.S. and OBTW, “sight-reading” as @lydian uses the phrase, means reading and playing material without previous rehearsal - on first sight. “Reading the dots” is just “reading”.

+1. One thing I remember well regarding 'sight reading' is that it's helpful to read slightly ahead of the notes you are playing in the moment, so you already know where the music is going. IOW, don't just read it down one or two notes at a time, but see the entirety of each phrase as you play. You also have to comprehend the rhythmic content. That said, I never got super-proficient at sight reading because over the years I've mostly played strictly by ear, and from memory of any given tune. I did play for a couple of years in a band with a horn section where we used charts and I was fine with that, but in general I prefer to learn the tunes and play by ear.

 

[Tenor Viol]

There are multiple issues here and unsurprisingly there's an assortment of answers. The answers that are appropriate for people vary depending on 'how' they learn and play, and also on genre.

A point made earlier is key: hearing something and being able to play it back immediately, is not the same as learning by rote - and they are frequently conflated.

There is also a difference between say a function band which plays a slowly changing repertoire of say 30 or 40 pieces, and a large ensemble playing scored originals or arrangements where you have to play what's written on the page. Yes, it's true that when you've rehearsed even a complex work like a symphony or a concerto often enough, the music becomes more of an aide-memoire and you're not reading every note.

Most of us do not have the time or the brain power to learn large pieces by rote, especially as you might not play it again for five or ten years. For example, I have performed the following works only once (on cello) in concerts over the last decade: Beethoven symphony no. 5, Mendelssohn violin concerto, Dvorak Symphony no. 8 and no.9, Brahms symphony no. 2, Sibelius symphony no. 5... etc.

Compare that with singing where some works I have performed numerous times: Fauré Requiem, Duruflé Requiem, Jenkins The Armed Man, Handel Messiah, Vaughan Williams Five Mystical Songs. Some of the Christmas repertoire I've performed so often that it's almost memorised. The Messiah I have performed possibly nearly one hundred times over more than thirty years.

 

[JSL]

Most of us do not have the time or the brain power to learn large pieces by rote, especially as you might not play it again for five or ten years. For example, I have performed the following works only once (on cello) in concerts over the last decade: Beethoven symphony no. 5, Mendelssohn violin concerto, Dvorak Symphony no. 8 and no.9, Brahms symphony no. 2, Sibelius symphony no. 5... etc.

Well, this does highlight the importance of what genre we are discussing. I pretty much assumed that @cappers wasn't referring to symphonic piece of music or classical music when asking about learning & memorizing tunes. Also, in most cases, playing in a big band setting requires the use of charts, although playing by ear is still important when improvising a solo. In a jazz combo, blues band, funk, or rock band, it's a different matter. For those genres, I would prefer playing by ear, without charts, and as a general rule (with some rare exceptions), charts won't be used.

 

[skeller047]

I gave a couple hints before for learning tunes (use a slow-down app, play alng with multiple versions), then went on a side trip down memory lane.

Sight reading is a skill. It takes time to learn. If you had to read a passage from a book aloud, a book you had never seen before, would you struggle over how to pronounce the individual words? Yet a beginning musician playing a new piece of music from sight, is faced with just that kind of issue. What’s the fingering for that note? What will it sound like? What key am I in, is this a sharp, flat or natural note? And the like. To say nothing of rhythmic duration, which may be more important from a performance standpoint.

Don’t worry about this too much @cappers. You are doing amazingly well. Reading will come with time, but it DOES take time. Repetition is mastery.

Regarding learning tunes, it will also take time, but it’s important to stretch your ear muscles every day. Play along with some music by ear every day. Even if you are not working on something specific, just involving yourself with other musicians in real time pays huge dividends. Stuff sinks in by osmosis. And it’s fun as all get out to stretch out with the masters on record. Trust in the process.

As always, man, I applaud you. You have the passion and attitude, you’re gonna be a big success.

 

[Tenor Viol]

I agree @skeller047 - sight-reading takes time to develop. When we learn to read, we don't start with Dickens, Shakespeare, or Tolstoy, but with very simple texts "Spot the dog" is one I vaguely remember from when I was about 4 years old.

Music is no different, but as adults that tends to frustrate us. Below is a photo of a page of organ music sitting on the music desk. I can sight-read the individual left and right hands (less so the pedal part). Can I play left and right hand together? Only rather slowly at the moment. Can I play both hands plus pedals? No, not at the moment.

I can just about play this though, which is significantly simpler:

 

[thomsax]

I started to learn/play the saxophone by ear because I couldn't see a sax/woodwind teacher. I was 12 years in 1968 and it was 10 km to the music school/teacher. So I started to learn by ear by listening radio and gramophone. For me it was not ..." don't need to read music ..". I wanted to play. Most of the things I know/can I have "taught myself". I just played along from recordings that I recorded from radio or gramophone. A slow way to learn. When I was 15 I could "play" 4-5 songs. On the other side I played in concert A,B,D,E on alto and tenor. I didn' knew what I was doing.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Thank you @MikeMorrell

I muddied the waters a bit by misquoting Pete, I didn't mean to infer that the ability to read is not necessary or Pete meant that.

The sentiment was my playing when reading is more stilted than when 'noodling' or attempting to improvise or play along.

As it happens I have learnt more than I realised and for a few songs, the music sheet is a more of a guide if I get lost. Songs that a few months ago were hard for me to play are becoming easier and more fluent so I guess with more repetition and listening those might settle in my brain too.

Originally I tried to play a whole song through over and over which just reinforced my mistakes. Breaking it up and playing the phrases and motifs and tricky bits until fluent it becomes embedded eventually and I can see the patterns better.

All good advice. I'm too impatient!

Exactly, @cappers! You really have come a long way since you joined the café just shy of a year ago!

I seem to remember that in your initial posts you first doubted your ability to play in a band! You then expressed your relief that the first rehearsals and - later - your first performance went well.

And within a year, you're now looking at ways to improve your practice routines in order to play more fluently. You've also discovered that 'more fluency' comes naturally when you 've rehearsed a piece often enough that the sheet music becomes more of a guide than a series of dots that you need to read and play one-by-one.

I really have admired your motivation, dedication, perseverance and learning abilities over the past year! I'm delighted by your band leader's growing confidence in you. But mainly by your growing confidence in yourself.

TBH I see your 'quest for more fluency' as (just) the next step in your development. So I have no doubt that you'll continue to improve in this and in other ways.

Bottom line: it's always natural to focus on what you (next) want improve. But IMHO it's also good (now and then) to reflect back on what you've achieved within such a short period of time. And to take satisfaction from this!.

Mike

PS, a few other (learned) things that have helped me over the years are:
- listening to a few YouTube recordings by the same arranger (just so that you get a 'feel' for how a new piece sounds)
- reading through any (relatively) new or unfamiliar sax parts to identify 'the phrasing', repeats, unfamiliar key signatures, important changes of dynamics, the 'tricky bits'. etc. and, ....
- when playing in an unfamiliar key signature (lots of sharps or flats, there are usually only certain notes that I need to play; so I pencil in the sharps and flats that I need to play on those notes
- where there are alternatives ways of playing certain notes in any 'run' (for example B♭ or F#, I pencil in which alternative is the easiest to play in the 'run'
- my 'notes' are always highly visual' (usually highlighted with a yellow marker) so that I can see at a glance what I need to be aware of (or remember) when I approach a certain section or bar

As time goes on (and I get used to playing 'new piece'), I need these notes less and less. But they've helped me 'get up to speed'.

In my (limited, amatuer, band) experience, the challenge of you personally (and the band as a whole) learning to play more 'fluently' is never ending. Initially, when you first join a band, you're faced with the huge challenge of learning to play a whole new repertoire. One that some other band members have played for years. So your only option is to try and play the 'notes' (as written) as best you can. Gradually, you become more familiar with some pieces that you can play more easily (with the sheet music more of a guide). But there will always be new pieces that the band as a whole (including you) must learn to play 'more fluently. But then, at least, you won't be at a disadvantage🙂.