Playing the saxophone "Learn the tunes so you don't need to (read) music"

@cappers I think there are two separate (though intertwined) things here, (1) being able to play what you hear and (2) memorizing songs. You can do 2 without 1 but of course 1 makes 2 a lot easier.

If one can't play songs like "happy birthday" from memory easily in a couple of keys then I think it's best to start there?

I think I've mentioned before a series of books called "Jump Right In" which collects dozens of recordings of folk songs to make training easier.
 
@cappers I think there are two separate (though intertwined) things here, (1) being able to play what you hear and (2) memorizing songs. You can do 2 without 1 but of course 1 makes 2 a lot easier.

If one can't play songs like "happy birthday" from memory easily in a couple of keys then I think it's best to start there?

I think I've mentioned before a series of books called "Jump Right In" which collects dozens of recordings of folk songs to make training easier.
I think that Happy Birthday is a trifle more tricky than people might think.
1. It doesn’t start on the tonic and there are some large intervals (oooh, that was 2.)
3. Requires good pitch / interval recognition
4. Good pitch memory too

Twinkle Twinkle easier?
 
Pete et al have offered some excellent advice already. All I would add is this:

Repetition. Ad. Nauseam.

Like I tell my students, if your roommates/spouse/family/etc think you're losing your mind, you're probably practicing correctly. If you're working on a tune, you'll play through various parts of it hundreds of times to memorize it. Like a child who just learned to tie a shoe, so she goes around untying and retying the shoes of every adult in the room, over and over again. As annoying as that might be, it's a crucial part of cognitive development, and it still is when we're older. Over and over and over again, until your housemates think you're completely nuts.

Anecdotally: I've had a fortunate career in music, and I get to do some pretty high-profile gigs, sometimes with very famous people. For that work, all music is memorized, there is no sheet music on stage, not for anyone. Night after night, no matter how much new material is added. Memorization, like anything else, is a skill that gets better and easier the more it's exercised.
 
@skeller047 @mizmar I have realised the importance of rest when learning especially something intensive like learning a tune, so usually take a day off each week. Nevertheless on those days off I feel that something is missing and a bit guilty.

I have noticed that a piece/phrase I'm having difficulty with become easier if I put it away for a few days. Coming back with 'fresher' ears/fingers perhaps? e.g. Tenor Madness (love it) for whatever reason had difficulty with the consecutive 16ths CDCA CDCC and C#AFD CAA#B.
Played each 16th very slowly, slowly, faster but kept messing up, start again etc. Wasn't happening so stopped. Two days off over Xmas, played the first two straight off, messed up the A# in the second pair (didn't use the side A# key!).
 
the importance of rest
The issue I'm getting at isn't about rest.
The sleep after learning something is when the brain consolidates memory. If you've repeated something, and got the memory enforcing buzz of feeling good about it, the brain will enforce it a bit while you sleep. If you do that the next day, it'll get more enforcement. Etc.
Obviously if you repeat the wrong thing, you can get stuck with that! If I've screwed something up, I park it for some days - like you say - to allow the memory to fade and get blurry before fixing it.

I have an appalling memory; but I memories everything my flute teachers sets, as much as anything, to build a better music memory. Obviously if it's learn by ear but also from the page. Learning by ear I can manage a new 30 seconds +/-. I divide the tune. Day 1 do (work-out and repeat) a phrase or so, next day do it again, maybe add a phrase, next day review, repeat, add and so on.
 
I think that Happy Birthday is a trifle more tricky than people might think.
1. It doesn’t start on the tonic and there are some large intervals (oooh, that was 2.)
3. Requires good pitch / interval recognition
4. Good pitch memory too
It's not really that tricky. For a start, everyone knows the melody in their head. It does help to know it starts on the '5' of the key (also, knowing the starting note for any tune is very helpful). And it's all diatonic, so no chromatics to throw you off. You can play it in any key once you know the 'formula' for the scale degrees numerically: 556517 556521, etc.
Happy birthday sounds like it is all the same note to me.
Really? I suspect you're joking but the entire melody uses all 12 notes of the major scale. Not just one note.

As to learning any tune, getting the melody firmly implanted in your brain is important, along with repetition. Lots and lots of repetition. I've also found that after first memorizing a tune, it really helps to play it with the band to get it solid. Improvising on the song form is the next thing and that takes some knowledge of music theory as well as developing your ear. A big topic, to say the least.
 
Lots of interesting advice with continual repetition being one that can work if you're wanting to plug into a "finger memory" style of playing.

However, if I'm understanding you, there are tunes you know, but they drop out where you could otherwise potentially improvise what you hear in your head. I'm guessing that your ability to hear things to improvise = hearing harmonies and melodic lines that fit the structure. So possibly it's not the structure and it's not an issue of coordinating fingers to what you hear.

I'm guessing... you've got two conflicting modes of mental pathways. If you want to play known/recognizable tunes as an improvisor, then you need to strengthen that pathway and not interrupt your flow by "externalizing" and asking yourself "how does that go?" To play any tune as an improvisor means leaving off visualizing dots, remembering words, or anything else other than being able to sing the tune completely trough without external inputs. If you can sing it, then you can definitely hear it and can physically execute it.

So advice wise, I'm skipping the learn the tune part except for tunes you can't yet sing. One of the shortest and best bits of advice came from Grumps. Put on music (I use the radio) and make it something you've never heard before, NOT the same old tunes you've played, and play along. Use Classical, rock, smooth, reggae, ethnic... anything. This is then you reinforcing your ears to hands pathway. It requires that you are NEVER thinking about notes, intervals, or even the key you're playing in. It's reinforcing the ears to hands pathway. It means you hear what's happening, and can also anticipate where it's going.

The happy birthday (or any simple tune) is also a good exercise, however the twist is to NOT assign a key. Use a random start note. That way you have to hear all that comes next and obviously play it WITHOUT interpreting it and trying to "translate" what you would have played in another key.

There's some science behind this which becomes more relevant as we get older. Our brains are not as plastic as children. The majority are visual learners. Almost all teaching is based on their needs. Thus teaching that emphasizes "translating" what is audio information into visual constructs or information that describes what to play without hearing the music. This does work for them, however if you're a audio learner it's potentially an impediment as you're being asked to translate something you can already hear and intuitively understand.

Unfortunately being an audio learner doesn't mean that you can pick up any instrument and play it fluently. It takes a lot of practice to coordinate what you hear to fingers, breath, embouchure, etc. The only natural instrument is our voice.

Understanding what you have played is also a good idea, knowing keys, intervals, chords, and theory, however that's primarily useful in being able to communicate with other musicians and not the mode of thinking when playing as an ear player. With the exception of the "Suzuki method" of teaching, there is no training for auditory learners. The odd thing though is that the Suzuki method mainly works for very young children who have "plastic" brains and can learn music as one learns a language, imitation through hearing, and not visually. The rest of us auditory types are left to our own devices. Many/most follow a visual/academic path with some eventually finding their way back to hearing what they will play instead of translating.

Most of the exercises one needs to develop technique, breath, embouchure, etc. will be the same for visual and auditory learners. However the way one plays most effectively potentially has a divide between those who are primarily visual learners compared to auditory.
 
Put on some music and put away the paper. Open your ears and play along.
It's really that simple.
Thanks @Grumps

I'm doing that more and more and really enjoy the 'freedom'. I know I'm far more 'fluid' doing this than when reading. Same for improvising.

I think my original question is based on the desire to play songs in the band without having to read the dots and to have that same level of fluidity, cutting out the middle man as it were.

Enough questions! More practise and playing along this new year! Cheers.
 
You can't play in a big band without dots. Some of the arrangements are quite complicated. It might be a song you know but the tune is tossed about from section to section and harmonised quite specifically.

A small ensemble is different. Name the tune, play the head, sometimes twice to get everybody up to speed, watch the leader for your solo, and for last time through.

The there's backing tracks. Same every time. Restricting but great for working out solos.

All very different. All very different approaches.
 
I think it may be that simple for some people, but I certainly didn’t find it that simple .
Neither did I. While I learned to read music early on (I started on clarinet), when I got a sax and wanted to play the blues & jazz, I played along extensively to recordings. And while I could pick up a few phrases and maybe a simple head arrangement, I sure didn't have the ability to improvise fluently or accurately. I had to learn something about chords, chord progressions, key center, song form, etc. I didn't need to know any of that to read the notes off the page, but when I started playing by ear and improvising, I had to learn some theory. I remember the big revelation learning the I-IV-V form of the blues. That's not to say you don't have to learn to HEAR those chord changes and use your ear to play, but some knowledge of how the music is put together is very helpful, and essential for must of us.
 

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