Playing the saxophone "Learn the tunes so you don't need to (read) music"

[Pete Thomas]

You can't play in a big band without dots.

Correct. But what I was quoted as saying (in this thread and the thread title) was out of context. It was specifically in regard to somebody learning a tune to play along with a backing track. I would never say you should have to learn (for example and in most cases) a big band part so you don’t need to learn music.

 

[mizmar]

You can't play in a big band without dots. Some of the arrangements are quite complicated. It might be a song you know but the tune is tossed about from section to section and harmonised quite specifically

I imagine - probably wrong - that your average orchestra/band musician has memorised their part to some degree but uses the page to prompt them as to what's coming next?

 

[Pete Effamy]

I imagine - probably wrong - that your average orchestra/band musician has memorised their part to some degree but uses the page to prompt them as to what's coming next?

I find that very doubtful

 

[mizmar]

I find that very doubtful

Ok. So, if I go to an orchestra performance; what is actually going on? It's precision work, however fast or fiddly.

 

[skeller047]

Repetition is mastery. When I played in a casino showroom relief band, one of the shows we did was a set piece at one of the showrooms. It was about an hour of music, in 4 segments. The short acts (comedians, magicians, dog trainers, etc.) between segments changed every 2 or 3 months. Very showbizzy and almost cartoon like. I played that show twice every Wednesday night for 4 years. By the 2nd year, I no longer had to look at the music. I just turned each section over and went on autopilot.

At one point someone in the section suggested counting Eb's in each part. So we all took a pencil and wrote the number on the top of each page. There was a question about whether we should use cancert pitch or written, but we decided on written. My part had alto and soprano sax, clarinet and flute and piccolo. The other alto had the same minus the soprano. Both tenor books had flute and clarinet, and one had oboe. Bari had bass clarinet, clarinet and flute. So we earned our keep. Lotta Eb's...

The guys in the regular band, who played that show 6 nights a week, asked about the numbers at one point. One of the trumpet players in that band then made a total for every note in his part. I pitied those guys, I was once called to join that band and turned it down because I knew my drug bill would endd up exceeding my salary. Several members of that band had nervous breakdowns. It was not horrible music, but it wasn't great either. Some of those guys played that show for its full run, which ended up being about 8 years. I don't know how they did it. But hey, they all had houses and cars...

I know the New York Broadway musicians, who often have a run of several years. can send in subs. It's part of the union regulations there, they can send in subs up to 50% of the shows. This allows them to go out for jazz gigs, or tour with a rock band or something. The casinos in Reno had no such policy, so those guys had to tough it out. I did sub in that band occasionally, if someone was sick or something, but it was unusual for guys to take more than 2 or 3 nights off a month.

So yes it's possible to memorize written parts. I was not the only one who did it. But there is a price to pay.

 

[skeller047]

Regarding the above, and @mizmar 's question, I don't think it's the same for a sympony orchestra. They usually will perform a piece for a week or two, maybe 4 or 5 nights plus a matinee, then they might not see that same composition again for a year or even much longer. And then it will be with a different conductor, who may have a very different interpretation, so the musicians might mark their parts quite differently.

Big bands in the 30s through the 60s, though, often played the same show night after night. One or two tunes might change in a week. Or a different singer might be part of the band for a while. But a lot of the tunes would be the same. So those guys would end up memorizing their parts through osmosis.

Latin bands often have complex horn parts, and it's very common to read them on stage, even if the band's repertoire is only 30 or 40 tunes. I played in a salsa band for a year or so, and we got a 6 week gig in Hawaii, 6 nights a week in a club in Honolulu. The club owner insisted that the horn players memorize the show, he didn't like music stands on the stage. So we three horn players spent the first week in Hawaii in our hotel rooms, running down the parts over and over. That was the hardest memorization I ever had to do, not in the least because the leader, who wrote the arrangements, didn't really know how to write parts, and there were multiple DS's and codas in several of the parts.

 

[thomsax]

You can't play in a big band without dots. Some of the arrangements are quite complicated. It might be a song you know but the tune is tossed about from section to section and harmonised quite specifically.

A small ensemble is different. Name the tune, play the head, sometimes twice to get everybody up to speed, watch the leader for your solo, and for last time through.

The there's backing tracks. Same every time. Restricting but great for working out solos.

All very different. All very different approaches.

It's possible to play written arrangements without reading the dots or to have the sheet music in front of you. It's a matter of time and discipline. I know players that are playing pretty advanced big bands arragangements with out reading, but they read when the learned it. So do I. But at much lower level. Rock and Blues. Soo hard to remember the long "breaks" I have put in lots of hours to learn stuff like this😉.

I use backing tracks (reordings w or wo horns, karaoke, backing tracks .....) when I try keep my music alive. I like songs when I can have "two for one": Ain't That A Lot of Love" and "Gimme Some Lovin'" not the same, but close!!!!

Without horns

View: https://youtu.be/WHtqeQx24_Y?si=RJtztxWXFfPauLKu


With horns

View: https://youtu.be/oeriG6XCRGw?si=alSQZBx9VY1_YRWs


We kept the recording key. The biggest problem for me to play this is to do the flip fingering in a good way. If I can avoid flip fingers, I do so. Having fun with Taj in the woodshed is fun.

 

[Grumps]

I think my original question is based on the desire to play songs in the band without having to read the dots and to have that same level of fluidity, cutting out the middle man as it were.

Let me share this with you. I learned to read music to play in school bands. To play in my father's band I had to transpose sheet music in C from other musician's notes, then eventually moving on to fake books, also in C. Later they started putting out fake books in Bb and even Eb. Every tune I learned this way from school band to my father's took time to memorize; which of course had me relying upon those books and printed notes when I gigged. Unforgiveable to me now, playing with my head in a sheet.

Then what happened? With easier pop and especially rock music, there's not always a fake book out there. So I'd have to learn from recordings. This evolved into pretty much being able to find any tune ever written and performed on Youtube. Now it doesn't matter if it's rock, jazz or pop. If I have to learn the tune I do it by hearing the recording and when I do it this way I almost instantly remember it. Because I'm not stuck to notes on a written page, changing keys is easier too. You internalize a tune better by learning it this way as you're eliminating the eyes from the equation. It goes directly from your ears to your brain and then on to your fingers.

I think it may be that simple for some people, but I certainly didn’t find it that simple .

The concept is the simple part. The getting good at it never is.

 

[mizmar]

Brilliant post.
So many people give great advice but forget the "start this when you're 10 years old and it'll be great after 20 years" bit.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Brilliant post.
So many people give great advice but forget the "start this when you're 10 years old and it'll be great after 20 years" bit.

Even better would be to have started Suzuki training at 3 years old and be able to play fluently by ear by the age of 5. Then you learn to read music. Unfortunately the Suzuki method is mostly for classical players of string instruments although expanding in to other instruments. It's been going long enough to have supplied some of this generation's greatest Classical players.

• Nicola Benedetti: Scottish classical violinist, known for her performances and advocacy for music education.
• Ray Chen: Taiwanese-Australian violinist who has won major competitions and performs globally.
• Sarah Chang: American violinist who was a child prodigy and has had a prominent international career.
• Julia Fischer: German classical violinist and pianist who is a renowned soloist.
• Hilary Hahn: American violinist, a multi-Grammy Award winner widely considered one of the top classical violinists of her generation.
• Leila Josefowicz: Canadian-American violinist known for her advocacy of contemporary music and numerous high-profile performances.
• Anne Akiko Meyers: American violinist who has released many successful albums and performs with leading orchestras.
• Christian Howes: Jazz violinist and educator.
• Martin Chalifour: Principal Concertmaster of the Los Angeles Philharmonic.

 

[JSL]

If I have to learn the tune I do it by hearing the recording and when I do it this way I almost instantly remember it. Because I'm not stuck to notes on a written page, changing keys is easier too. You internalize a tune better by learning it this way as you're eliminating the eyes from the equation. It goes directly from your ears to your brain and then on to your fingers.

+1. I've found that I can read a tune dozens of times without memorizing it. It's only when I get away from the sheet music and learn the tune by ear from a recording that I end up getting it memorized. And, as I stated earlier, by playing the tune by ear with a band, I really get it down solid. Others may have a different experience, but this is how it works for me.

Obviously in a big band situation, you'll be using charts, but I did read somewhere that the Count Basie Band members tended to improvise horn lines right on the bandstand.

 

[Targa]

Even better would be to have started Suzuki training at 3 years old and be able to play fluently by ear by the age of 5. Then you learn to read music. Unfortunately the Suzuki method is mostly for classical players of string instruments although expanding in to other instruments. It's been going long enough to have supplied some of this generation's greatest Classical players.

• Nicola Benedetti: Scottish classical violinist, known for her performances and advocacy for music education.
• Ray Chen: Taiwanese-Australian violinist who has won major competitions and performs globally.
• Sarah Chang: American violinist who was a child prodigy and has had a prominent international career.
• Julia Fischer: German classical violinist and pianist who is a renowned soloist.
• Hilary Hahn: American violinist, a multi-Grammy Award winner widely considered one of the top classical violinists of her generation.
• Leila Josefowicz: Canadian-American violinist known for her advocacy of contemporary music and numerous high-profile performances.
• Anne Akiko Meyers: American violinist who has released many successful albums and performs with leading orchestras.
• Christian Howes: Jazz violinist and educator.
• Martin Chalifour: Principal Concertmaster of the Los Angeles Philharmonic.

Next door neighbour: Noisy annoying little brat.

 

[Dr G]

I imagine - probably wrong - that your average orchestra/band musician has memorised their part to some degree but uses the page to prompt them as to what's coming next?

No. We used to play three new sets a month from a library of ~400 tunes. Many charts might be 8 pages long. After 20 years in the band, many of the difficult passages became familiar but I failed to ever memorize an entire challenging chart.

 

[Colin the Bear]

To memorise something, you have to memorise it. Who knew? 😁

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think my original question is based on the desire to play songs in the band without having to read the dots and to have that same level of fluidity, cutting out the middle man as it were.

However I hope you realise the quote in your post from me was nothing to do with that.

but I did read somewhere that the Count Basie Band members tended to improvise horn lines right on the bandstand.

I’m sure they would have done.

 

[cappers]

However I hope you realise the quote in your post from me was nothing to do with that.

Yes and apology for any misunderstanding.

It just made me wonder about playing by ear or from memory rather than relying on the dots.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It just made me wonder about playing by ear or from memory rather than relying on the dots.

In my experience it's not an either/or but a combination, which is what I meant in the post that was quoted. You don't need to read music was in one specific context and not meant to mean there is no need to have the ability to read music. As if one is an alternative to, or can replace, the other.

Without the ability to either:

• Go on stage and and read a part that's given to you and play it as if you weren't struggling to read the notes
• Go on stage (in a horn section) and play a 50 song set without having any music in front of you

I would not have lasted long as a pro musician.

 

[Ivan]

Put on some music and put away the paper. Open your ears and play along.
It's really that simple.

That is how I played having been told by Barry Storey, my sax teacher, not to waste my Mum's money on lessons

I didn't like and consequently didn't practice the soulless exercises set by Barry. His advice to stop lessons was good for his frustration and for my Mum's purse, but I still wanted to play sax, so I played to records and found notes that fitted

 

[Pete Thomas]

That is how I played having been told by Barry Storey, my sax teacher, not to waste my Mum's money on lessons

I didn't like and consequently didn't practice the soulless exercises set by Barry. His advice to stop lessons was good for his frustration and for my Mum's purse, but I still wanted to play sax, so I played to records and found notes that fitted

Barry sounds like my kind of teacher.

 

[mizmar]

It just made me wonder about playing by ear or from memory rather than relying on the dots.

To achieve what?
To learn the "lead sheet" melody for later improv?
To learn a band orchestra part?
To improve your musical listen/transcription ability.
To be a pro, star of stage and session?
...
Me, I'm most focused on the 3rd of these. As mentioned, I do some by-ear, some from-dots (including some attempt at sight playing) ... Just to "get better". I've got a pile of arrangements in Beginner /intermediate arrangements for sax; I try to leant the former from demo recordings and the latter from the page for different reasons.