Saxophone beginners Late starters, gas and progress

[mizmar]

So how as hermits to assess our progress?

If a sax player plays to his own satisfaction, in a forest with no one else around to hear, can they sound bad?

No.

Simple really.

If the kit works, worry about something else.

 

[PaulC]

You can't buy your sound it has to be earned. However once found, the gear can help.

That is profound, and very true.

 

[Colin the Bear]

That is profound, and very true.

Distilled forum wisdom.

 

[Allophone]

You can't buy your sound it has to be earned. However once found, the gear can help.

I think this is what I was trying to say ---
But you did it much better.

 

[Dr G]

Dear cappers -thank you for the input -- you and I are both in the eighth decade of life - wow where did all the time go? - but ---
OK i had a Yamaha - I think 3C mouthpiece that came with my Yamaha tenor sax.
So I bought a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece out of the gate - and that was better.
But I dropped it and it shattered.
So I tried to order a replacement - but they were out of stock and put it on back order.
I could still practice with the 3C.
At least to build embouchure.
Also ordered a #5 from another maker (Theo Wanne) and.....as usual that was on back order - LOL.
So I just messed around with reeds.
Well a few days ago I got the mouthpieces.
And to be fair I sort of ignored them and left them aside --
Until my friend asked me:
"Aren't all saxophone mouthpieces the same? Are they not standardized?"
And then I started really comparing them.
It was only today that I started mixing the various reeds with the various mouthpieces.
I really think we should all take a moment at least once in our personal career to do this --mix reeds and mouthpieces and see what happens -
It is a good experiment for everyone.
It does not hurt anything and it is educational.
Then..................
I made a recording using each mouthpiece --
They sounded distinctly different to me as I played.
They sounded distinctly the Same on the recording.
So that is also educational.
The subtle harmonic overtone changes are hard to capture in recordings.
I may hear my tone quality but..............how do I verify it?
This is an issue -
How do we old guys verify our tone quality --
We can not invite the neighbors over - sorry - hey listen to my crappy sax practice ----Not going to work!!!
So how as hermits to assess our progress?

If you actually have a question that you’d like to discuss, please let us know. There are ways to validate your personal recordings.

 

[cappers]

I made a recording using each mouthpiece --
They sounded distinctly different to me as I played.
They sounded distinctly the Same on the recording.

I think (I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that a lot of the sound we hear when playing results from vibrations and acoustic modulations by our oral cavity which is connected to our ears. Vibrations though our teeth, jaw and skull will also add to this effect.
The non-playing listener will only hear the sound coming from the bell and tone holes.

Possibly the recording isn't that accurate? I don't know what you used. My first recording was on a phone voice memo app (!) and it sounded so awful I nearly gave up.

As @Colin the Bear and other say, you have to earn your sound and it will come. At first I sounded like a strangled chicken; much improved now, more like a goose with laryngitis.

 

[Dr G]

Distilled forum wisdom.

Bottle or box?

 

[Ghr9204]

The differences in mouthpieces are to accommodate different physiognomies. (and to part fools from their money) Struggling with a piece you find difficult is a waste of time and effort.

There will come a time when you sound the same on anything you play. The difference will be how easily this is accomplished. The point of gear is to allow you to be you. It's very easy to become distracted by kit when the point of the exercise is music. You can't buy your sound it has to be earned. However once found, the gear can help.

I certainly most agree. Thus far, the mouthpieces I sound best on are the low cost Arnold Brillhart Rico Graftonite B5 on sop and bari, Selmer 90-190 on alto. (It's costs have jumped, now $259 (£193). The tenor, I am still experimenting. Thus far, the entry level Bari brand mouthpiece has worked for me.

(And contrary to some, my favs are SAB over T.)

The narrower tipped "beginner" mouthpieces work best with my community band. I must really back off on the volume with tenor and alto. It is very easy for one saxophone to overblow passages with the clarinets oboe and flute sections. Where they are at their forte, I am playing piano to balance. Very, very, rarely do I play forte-fortissimo on the tenor, and when I do, I am with the brass section (to balance out the trombones). 😀 (Seems everywhere I go, there is someone named "Don" on 'bone.) 🦓

With todays electronics and microphones, "projection" IMHO is of lesser importance than simply "sounding good". 😉

And regarding GAS, through this journey, I now have my share of mouthpieces sitting out of the case and on a shelf, as they did not work out. 😱

 

[mizmar]

Distilled forum wisdom.

Indeed; the potcheen of saxophone advice

 

[wakyct]

I was on the train the other day halfway to band rehearsal, when I realized I forgot my reed case. The only reed I had on me was the chipped plastidip unknown brand that came with my sax when I bought it. The choice was try to rush home, get the case, and rush back, or soldier on.

After a quick test of just the mouthpiece and neck at the train station, I decided to give it a try. It felt like I was playing through a sock the whole time but after rehearsal the tenor player said he hadn't been able to tell the difference (of course that could mean several things but anyway... And I put a couple more reeds in my horn case since then.)

 

[Ghr9204]

And I put a couple more reeds in my horn case since then.

That is why I've included assortment of reeds, reed trimmer, neck strap, an extra mouthpiece and lig in my case. Stuff happens and it saved me on more than one occasion. Extra neckstrap came in handy when a fellow sax player forgot his during a concert.

 

[Allophone]

OK -
Thanks once again for all of the helpful input -
Old geezer sharing -
I am trying to share my adventure with the tenor sax as an older dude - namely what we encounter in age as we pick up a new instrument - not because I think I am smart - but because it may help encourage others - so here goes.........

Yes I get dizzy doing long tones and yes it is hard to play long low tones because my lung tidal volume is no longer 7 liters ----
And yes the sides of my mouth get tired --
But here was some fun -

Pick a note that you can finger with only your left hand - leaving your right hand free --
There are plenty of such notes on the sax -
Now who has done this experiment???----
With your free right hand, reach up and pinch the reed as you are playing.
And listen to what happens to the tone and intonation.
Please do not hate on me -
This is a nice fun experiment.
Intentionally pinching the reed might mimic what the old pros are calling "Biting" ---

So this test does several things for free -- I think.
It changes the ligature -
It changes the reed strength -
It changes the effective tip opening -
It mimics the effect of biting -
Now granted - totally granted - this is by no means a perfectly controlled experiment -
But it might give us (as older beginners) an insight as to how our tone might change under different parameters - for free.
And I do not know about you - but as I get older, I become more aware of my personal budget and hate the government's profligate spending even more.
This test, however, is free.
I have no question here - I did this experiment and found it to be interesting (and free) and therefore I am sharing.
It is a tone test.
Old geezers are allowed some leeway - please - just trying to learn.

 

[Ghr9204]

It changes the ligature -
It changes the reed strength -
It changes the effective tip opening -
It mimics the effect of biting -

You forgot one: It adds to GAS - 😉
"Free? Why yes, dear. It came with my order. I used their coupon code, I saved a bundle."
(IOW: Ask me no questions, and I will tell you no lies.)

 

[mizmar]

With your free right hand, reach up and pinch the reed as you are playing.

I'm not seeing the utility. It may be free but is it useful? It can't be applied to actual playing.

Also free:
The nominal place for pressure on the reed is the break point with the rails. If you slip a bit of thin card between the reed and MP - where it stops.
Nominal is the starting point, default, where to start exploring from. So, from there you can vary the pressure, pull the lower jaw back, change the angle etc. See how it affects tone through the whole range - and the extremes (bell tones and altissimo) , seem to me, more responsive to these changes.

Also, experiment with breath support, oral cavity shape, larynx position... All important, free, things which might substantially change tone without new kit. Some even argue that leaning on buying new kit short-circuits learning these factors....

 

[Allophone]

Next question from old starter -
As a beginner, I am still spending most of my time on long tones, and various scales. -
Slow scales to focus on tone quality more than fingering alacrity.
And I have noticed something odd......

While playing a D scale for instance - the intonation and quality is consistent throughout the scale - not great - but at least consistent.
Then while playing say an F or a G scale - some of those same notes that previously sounded consistent are no longer sounding consistent.
The intonation is a little off or the timbre is not right.

Had those notes been inconsistent on the same scale, then I might have thought there was an issue with the machine/instrument. Maybe an intermittently leaky pad or what not.
But this is the very same note with the very same fingering, but in a different sequence of notes - and now it sounds 'off'.
And it seems to make this inconsistent sound fairly consistently.

Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon?
This sounds like it might be an embouchure training issue where maybe players need to learn to adapt their embouchure in subtly different ways given a certain sequence of notes and that adaptation just becomes a learned habit with skill and practice?
And as beginners we simply do not have that skill yet but we can hear it?
So it is just "a phase" we may be going through, as parents say about their kids?

What is the best way to clean up those inconsistent notes?
Read more Kafka?
More long tones with focus on those weird notes?
More scales with variations?
Just simply more practice time doing anything that involves actually playing?
This (phase) too shall pass?
Kind of disheartening.
It just seems odd that certain notes sound ok sometimes then do not sound ok despite the fact that the notes above and below them sound fine and they only sound sour in certain sequences.
Grasshopper is puzzled.
Thanks in advance for comments.

 

[skeller047]

And I have noticed something odd......

While playing a D scale for instance - the intonation and quality is consistent throughout the scale - not great - but at least consistent.
Then while playing say an F or a G scale - some of those same notes that previously sounded consistent are no longer sounding consistent.
The intonation is a little off or the timbre is not right.

I’m not quite sure what this means. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that you play a D major scale and the A sounds fine. Then you play an F major scale and the A sounds wrong. Wrong how? Bad tone (too bright, too dark?), out of tune relative to the F, something else? It’s not clear what you mean.

In any case, I recommend that you try playing along with some easy tunes. If you have a MIDI setup, create a sequence with a melody you like, and play along with it. Try to play in tune with it. If you don’t have a MIDI setup, then use a YouTube video or something. Make sure you have something to match with.

If it’s intonation that’s bothering you, then I recommend working with some drone tones. I have some on Soundcloud that are downloadable, so you can put them on your phone or something.

https://soundcloud.com/skeller047%2Fsets%2Fdroneology

View: https://soundcloud.com/skeller047/sets/droneology


There are many others on the internet. My tones last 30 seconds each, so try various tones against each drone. Here’s an example of me playing along with the circle of fifths drone to give you an idea.

https://soundcloud.com/skeller047%2Fdrone-practice

View: https://soundcloud.com/skeller047/drone-practice?in=skeller047/sets/droneology


This may help you focus in on notes that are problematic. I find doing this instead of long tones is pretty valuable.

 

[Ghr9204]

Missed your lengthy but good post, @skeller047 .

Grasshopper is puzzled.

Cola nut or Uncola nut, can you choose? 😉

D scale is basically within one octave, only need Octave Key for upper D (if starting from the bottom).

F and G, you cross the octave.

Yes, could be a leak. Sometimes a reed is going bad, but that corrects itself with a new good reed.

Sent my Selmer Bundy II alto in for repair, now plays consistent.

If it's been a while since a tech looked over your sax and particularly if it is old, may be time for a "tuneup"?

Or for us old far**, a good night's rest and a fresh start in the morning? 😉

 

[Allophone]

It’s not clear what you mean.

It is intonation and timbre both. So yes it sounds out of tune relative to the rest of the scale and it typically sounds what we might call muffled and weak.
But I shall avail myself of your suggestions - Serious Thanks.

 

[Allophone]

Or, a fresh start in the morning.

LOL - Have we met before?
That is very often a good solution - Love it!

 

[Colin the Bear]

It could be a matter of voicing.
It could be mouthpiece position.