Tech/maintenance lacquer repair on a Conn Naked Lady

[syevad]

View attachment 31896

Now I get what are those funny coloured greasy cubes next to drill/sawing bits - I have 2 of these rotary tools and never bothered to explore the polishing side - that's very informative...
From what I've found out the sealing side needs to be planned too - there is no point polishing and leave it there unless a patina is required (not in my case).

 

[turf3]

For crying out loud! Ketchup? Power buffers? Different grades of rouge?

Just get some metal polish (Wenol, Simichrome, or equivalent) and a rag, and hand polish those two little spots. Honestly it's not this tough.

 

[JayeNM]

Original lacquer - but that scratch is a bit too much (and a similar one on the opposite side too). Any easy and cheap remedy? I'm thinking of covering as much as possible leaving a tiny border untreated as it would be very tricky blending the new lacquer to the old...

So you got your answer.

Easiest solution...have it chem-bathed by a pro, then hand-polished with some sort of paste (I suggest Wenol, Maas...Flitz also is OK. If you desire a mirror-like appearance, then give it a second go with Hagerty 100....that stuff has fooled people into believing they were looking at a lacquer finish when in fact it was just nicely polished brass. It won't match, but will look better than THAT.

It WILL start to patina, so there isn't a hecka lotta control you have as to HOW it patinas. Sometimes, as it Patinas it will start moving towards the color of the orig lacq so not look bare anymore. When it gets close, you can use a wax to sorta quasi-arrest the patina (something as simple as Pledge furniture polish, or less simple like a metal wax).

Next, you could investigate buying metal tinters, then apply the tint then wax it. Jax Gold is one, it has a so-so success rate tho. I use tints marketed for outdoor metal sculptures, light heat torch surface then brush applied.

These will not, again, MATCH the hue of the original lacq, but will get it sorta close enough in tint so that from 10 to 12 feet away, there isn't much to notice.

Last possibility - SPOIT LACQUER (By a tech/pro, please). There are lacquer products available to a tech where they mix up lacq with tint, get an OK color-match to original lacq, then usually brush apply. It gets pretty darn close initially and will LOOK really pretty decent...until the lacq starts to age over time and the two lacq colors start falling out of similar hue as time goes by.
NOT many techs do this anymore, honestly. But results are good for a while (could be anywhere between 6 months -5 years).

****DO NOT DO A D.I.Y. SPRAY-CAN SOLUTION ! NEVER ! It will look bad in a pretty short time, as in less than a year tops, and on a horn like a 10M, 90% of sax folk will agree it would have been better off just left bare.

 

[JayeNM]

Now I get what are those funny coloured greasy cubes next to drill/sawing bits - I have 2 of these rotary tools and never bothered to explore the polishing side - that's very informative...
From what I've found out the sealing side needs to be planned too - there is no point polishing and leave it there unless a patina is required (not in my case).

I think, from looks of ity....Patina will be required if you do a complete clean and polish to bare brass....IF what you want is to achieve a hue which is in the neighborhood of the orig lacq, which is sorta med-to-dark.

So that is what I usually do. Do the clean and polish, then let horn sit a few weeks, the initial shiny gold result will start to darken down some, highly likely. When it reaches a point where it is 'better' or 'acceptable' to you (IOW CLOSER to the lacq color than a newly polished bare brass patch), THEN hit it with a wax or sealer.

 

[PigSquealer]

Now I get what are those funny coloured greasy cubes next to drill/sawing bits - I have 2 of these rotary tools and never bothered to explore the polishing side - that's very informative...
From what I've found out the sealing side needs to be planned too - there is no point polishing and leave it there unless a patina is required (not in my case).

If you have zero experience with polishing compounds and power tools. This is not the time to learn. You can destroy the engraving really quick.

 

[turf3]

If you have zero experience with polishing compounds and power tools. This is not the time to learn. You can destroy the engraving really quick.

I don't understand why people who don't know what they're doing want to START by attacking stuff with power tools that even an experienced professional would approach with great care and trepidation.

I remember many years ago a young guy asked me about a sticky door in his house. The question he asked, though, wasn't "what should I do about this" but rather "which power planer should I buy?" I tried my best to point out that for ONE sticky door, the tool of choice, the tool professional carpenters would use, is a Stanley block plane, costing <$100, NOT a finger-trimming power planer. I don't think I was successful.

Similarly, my ownership of and use of hand saws. I try to explain to people who look at me like I have three heads when I talk about a hand saw, that when you want to take 1" off a 3" piece of wood, running a spinning circular saw past your thumb is a REALLY BAD IDEA and trying to come up with appropriate fixtures to do it safely on your table saw is a BIG WASTE OF TIME when you can just slice that piece of wood off in a few seconds with an ordinary hand saw - and you'll be doing it safely and quietly too. They just can't grasp this.

So, if you have a dull tarnished spot on your saxophone, STEP AWAY FROM THE POWER TOOLS. Go get an old T shirt and some metal polish and have at it, by hand.

And "destroy the engraving" is the least of it.

One thing power buffers EXCEL at is ripping the workpiece from your hands, and flinging it across the shop. Or, if it's a saxophone, ripping the posts and mounts off the body of the horn, and flinging THEM across the shop, never to be found again. Or out the open window of the shop into the tall grass, never to be found again.

All this to avoid 15 minutes with the aforementioned old T shirt and a tube of Simichrome or Wenol.

 

[syevad]

@PigSquealer "I don't understand why people who don't know what they're doing want to START by attacking stuff with power tools that even an experienced professional would approach with great care and trepidation."

Power tool is such a big statement for a battery powered 4v rotary tool - then using felt wheels at lowest speed rather than abrasive sanding paper over engraving? I think I'll try both ways and see (I got 2 big patches).
The problem with using sheets of sanding paper is one has to move these sheets and has to be careful the other corners don't touch existing good lacquer - the felt wheel is a lot smaller = more control and all surface of the wheel is used as this rotates while the sanding sheets is going to be clogged every few seconds and rubbing removed material back into the "cleaned" surface.

 

[syevad]

I've done one patch with the sanding method - the engraving is still there (the mirror effect is still far away...).
To get the mirror effect I think I need to find a way to protect the engraving - it's about 5 lines less than 2mm wide and if these tiny areas are shielded from sanding/polishing the mirror effect should be no brainer...
Any useful tip to protect the engraving? I'm thinking of using beewax or even tiny strips of sellotape (or similar)...even better copper wire or metal strips...

 

[JayeNM]

Power tool is such a big statement for a battery powered 4v rotary tool - then using felt wheels at lowest speed rather than abrasive sanding paper over engraving? I think I'll try both ways and see (I got 2 big patches).
The problem with using sheets of sanding paper is one has to move these sheets and has to be careful the other corners don't touch existing good lacquer - the felt wheel is a lot smaller = more control and all surface of the wheel is used as this rotates while the sanding sheets is going to be clogged every few seconds and rubbing removed material back into the "cleaned" surface.

I may have missed something in the convo...sand paper for what ? If we are still talking about the initial photo, I see no need for sandpaper, unless there are some deep scratches under there. Even if there are I might still not use sandpaper.
I think a simple disassemble, home-brew chem bath (or better yet take body to tech and have them chem or sonic bathe for around 25 quid, I would guess), follow with a hand-polish using a good polishing paste, and you are there. No need to worry about the boundary of the lacq and the bare patch.

I agree tho if you are gonna use a small buffing attachment on a relatively low-speed apparatus, as opposed to a bench motor, it is unlikely that can do any damage to anything, and even low-speed wheel with some rouge will brighten it more than a simple hand-paste polish. I am just not sure you wanna brighten it more than that, however...since I think you are gonna want it to patina down a bit away from shiny bare brass afterward.

 

[turf3]

@PigSquealer "I don't understand why people who don't know what they're doing want to START by attacking stuff with power tools that even an experienced professional would approach with great care and trepidation."

Power tool is such a big statement for a battery powered 4v rotary tool - then using felt wheels at lowest speed rather than abrasive sanding paper over engraving? I think I'll try both ways and see (I got 2 big patches).
The problem with using sheets of sanding paper is one has to move these sheets and has to be careful the other corners don't touch existing good lacquer - the felt wheel is a lot smaller = more control and all surface of the wheel is used as this rotates while the sanding sheets is going to be clogged every few seconds and rubbing removed material back into the "cleaned" surface.

WHERE did anyone talk about sandpaper, for crying out loud?

I'm gonna say it one more time. You can choose, or not, to read and understand.

1) Go to hardware store and buy a tube or can of metal polish. The two I'd recommend are Simichrome and Wenol; but to be quite honest for this one little spot, even Brasso would be OK.

2) Get a soft rag - old T shirt or equivalent.

3) Use the metal polish according to directions on the tarnished spot.

If #2 and #3 take you more than 15 minutes I'll be frankly astonished.

 

[JayeNM]

I've just put the tomato paste and worked as expected - as someone pointed out already it should get darker with time. Fact is, I'd like to get the mirror effect of the original lacquer so achieving a patina isn't the goal unless I decide to delacquer the whole body.

I think if you want a mirror effect then you abandon the idea of getting the hues closer to match.

Personally, I would abandon mirror effect...and shoot for closing the gap between the hues.

Mirror effect will be temporary (mechanical buff OR as I suggested earlier, find Hagerty 100 polish (THAT particular Hagerty product, the 100) and it will bring it to mirror after you first go with a more toothy polish.

But again, IMHO, getting the mirror sheen but the hue being yellow brass...is gonna be more of a contrast than staying with less sheen but hue mellowing down into vicinity of lacq color.

(BTW...that photo of tomato sauce on the bell....should have been deleted by Moderators for being a horrifically WRONG and inappropriate image 😵 ...it will take ME weeks before I an UNSEE that, if I am lucky....)

 

[syevad]

@PigSquealer "I don't understand why people who don't know what they're doing want to START by attacking stuff with power tools that even an experienced professional would approach with great care and trepidation."

Power tool is such a big statement for a battery powered 4v rotary tool - then using felt wheels at lowest speed rather than abrasive sanding paper over engraving? I think I'll try both ways and see (I got 2 big patches).
The problem with using sheets of sanding paper is one has to move these sheets and has to be careful the other corners don't touch existing good lacquer - the felt wheel is a lot smaller = more control and all surface of the wheel is used as this rotates while the sanding sheets is going to be clogged every few seconds and rubbing removed material back into the "cleaned" surface.

The sanding paper has to be moved along the surface = a rather wider contact of 1cm square if you are lucky...at the very extreme you can use the very top of your fingertip for less contact area but that if your sanding paper could be "moulded" into your finger but I guess this isn't practical and it's going to damage the sheet too. The rotating felt's touching surface is barely 1-2mm square.

 

[syevad]

WHERE did anyone talk about sandpaper, for crying out loud?

I'm gonna say it one more time. You can choose, or not, to read and understand.

1) Go to hardware store and buy a tube or can of metal polish. The two I'd recommend are Simichrome and Wenol; but to be quite honest for this one little spot, even Brasso would be OK.

2) Get a soft rag - old T shirt or equivalent.

3) Use the metal polish according to directions on the tarnished spot.

If #2 and #3 take you more than 15 minutes I'll be frankly astonished.

2000-3000 grit wet paper....

 

[turf3]

I think if you want a mirror effect then you abandon the idea of getting the hues closer to match.

Personally, I would abandon mirror effect...and shoot for closing the gap between the hues.

Mirror effect will be temporary (mechanical buff OR as I suggested earlier, find Hagerty 100 polish (THAT particular Hagerty product, the 100) and it will bring it to mirror after you first go with a more toothy polish.

But again, IMHO, getting the mirror sheen but the hue being yellow brass...is gonna be more of a contrast than staying with less sheen but hue mellowing down into vicinity of lacq color.

(BTW...that photo of tomato sauce on the bell....should have been deleted by Moderators for being a horrifically WRONG and inappropriate image 😵 ...it will take ME weeks before I an UNSEE that, if I am lucky....)

It is apparent that OP has no interest in suggestions from people with actual metal working experience. Tomato sauce rather than Wenol.

 

[Targa]

It is apparent that OP has no interest in suggestions from people with actual metal working experience. Tomato sauce rather than Wenol.

But why has no one yet offered their own recipes for home made tomato sauce?
Surely much better than that bought off the shelf at the supermarket though I suppose high quality artisanal products must be available.

 

[turf3]

I know how to clean up that finish!

 

[syevad]

disclaimer:
While I do appreciate the many suggestions about repairing the lacquer of this 6M it is useful to take a different perspective and consider the following:
1) No naked lady has been damaged as a result of smearing it with concentrated tomato puree (nor mustard or hot chocolate too...).
2) The engraving is still there despite the sanding (above all the owner has basic common sense) - in fact if anyone would come with how to protect the engraving while polishing that would be a very appreciated tip - solved that and 50% of the problem is gone in my view...(the matching mirror effect + colour is the rest).
3) The overall aestetics of the horn was already heavily compromised (the 2 spot only the very visible tip of the iceberg). There's plenty of corrosion points, many other scratches - Trust me, I wouldn't experiment if the rest was in good state (it isn't).

The good news:
The horn plays great (substance over look) and its probably more than 1000 miles from you (while it feels like you've been hurt) it's mine and free to do and experiment on my naked lady as I please (so, don't worry about it). If this lacquer repairing fails, there are 2 other options (other than just playing it cos' it sounds great even it looks ugly):
1) Delaquer completely - a proper "naked lady" should be de-lacquered (my view) - this was my very first idea when I bought it and opened that smelly rotten case - it was in such a bad state and wasn't playing...
2) Get a sledge-hammer and banging it violently to make a sculpture or a lamp - guess what? It would probably increases it's market value as no one would ever dare doing it on such a prestigious horn - Syevad would do that for the sake of experimenting and more...
If you don't stop nagging - that's what I'll do...and I'll post the video too...😱

 

[PigSquealer]

2000-3000 grit wet paper....

Wet to feather off the hard old edges of lacquer….if I were going to spray. Not for polishing.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Wet to feather off the hard old edges of lacquer….if I were going to spray. Not for polishing.

Feathering off sounds good, it would also remove any odd bits not quite stuck so would maybe flake off.

 

[Ghr9204]

free to do and experiment on my naked lady as I please

I did too but we stopped at two.