Beginner impro Key sig - C major and its relative A minor

[PiccoloPirate]

Autumn Leaves in Em starts with E, F#, G.
When it hits C, the basic chords are,
Am7, D7, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, F#min7b5, B7 then Em, for the first ending.
Those chords are transposed to whichever key you play it in.
Not sure how the OP played it in a Major key.
On C flute, I like Em, as the B foot gives me a low B, the 5th of E.
On Picc, Gm works, as D is the lowest note, and gives me the 5th of G.
Best for improv.
Question, if I play it on Alto Flute, and start the tune, fingering C, D and Eb, what concert key is heard?
If I start it fingering G, A, Bb, what key is heard?
On the SS Albert Clarinet in C, I start on low G or low E, as it's the best way to get
familiar with the fingerings.
G minor might be my favorite key on Piccolo.
Adagio madness, with Pasta and Ale.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Question, if I play it on Alto Flute, and start the tune, fingering C, D and Eb, what concert key is heard?

I’d hazard a guess at G minor.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

^^^^
That was homework for non-pros. 😉 😀

 

[cappers]

Not sure how the OP played it in a Major key.

I play(ed) Autumn Leaves on tenor in A minor.

My original question was how does one know the key signature is A minor or C Maj when there are no # or b in the key sig. That was answered to my satisfaction.

I tried it in C Maj on the keyboard and of course is sounded 'wrong'. This was for me to hear and understand the difference. Still learning about scales, modes etc and I find the keyboard handy for trying things out.

 

[MikeMorrell]

I played the first 12 bars on the keyboard in Am then GMj, the latter sounded wrong.

I'll try it Em tomorrow.
Thanks.

For me, you've hit the nail on the head! Yes, I've learned some main indicators (chords, notes) at the start and end of tunes.. But IMHO the more you listen to the (subjective, audible) differences between tunes based on 'major keys' and (relative) 'minor keys', the more easy it will become to play (or even visually 'scan') a piece of music and quickly recognize whether it's written in a major or relative minor key.

Although both the 'major' and 'relative minor' keys share the same key signature and 'notes, they sound - as you point out - very different.

 

[Allophone]

If all you have is the melody, can you tell what the harmony is?

And then.....
Once you get into all the modes: dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian (the classic minor), locrian ---which are basically the same key signature but start the scale on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th - etc note - it really does not seem to matter terribly what key you are in.
Which is why theory often messes with my head.
I have to agree with "skeller here that the melody alone is rarely enough to dictate key signature. It is really going to depend on the surrounding and supporting harmonic structures.
Our human ears tend to "like" certain harmonic structures and progressions and find them pleasant while finding others dissonant.
The pleasant ones tend to follow certain patterns as skeller and other posters mentioned.
Those patterns have been pretty well worked out if you really really want to study it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have to agree with "skeller here that the melody alone is rarely enough to dictate key signature. It is really going to depend on the surrounding and supporting harmonic structures.

Very often the end of a melody, along with the implied cadence dictates the key. This mostly applies to traditional or (if you will) "conventional" melodies.

 

[Allophone]

Very often the end of a melody, along with the implied cadence dictates the key. This mostly applies to traditional or (if you will) "conventional" melodies.

But isn't it a wee bit late to learn the key sig "by the end of a melody"????
Poke poke --
😉
But yes - in Bach's Well Tempered Clavier - for instance - the last measures pretty well spelled out the key signature of every traditional piece therein.
And moving to more modern times this might be why the last few bars of a song are often used as the introduction in popular song arrangements.
Very philosophical observation - the ending of a song predicts its own beginning - hmmmmmm - oh dear.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But isn't it a wee bit late to learn the key sig "by the end of a melody"????

Not if that is the only way of knowing.

 

[cappers]

I'd forgotten about this question I asked in April.
Three months later I wonder how I could have been so dumb Stuff that seemed so complex and alien is slowly becoming second nature.

I'm finding this a bizarre and wonderful journey.

 

[mizmar]

Very philosophical observation - the ending of a song predicts its own beginning - hmmmmmm - oh dear.

Well, except anthems that end by modulating up and up and up ... predicting triumph?

 

[mizmar]

Three months later I wonder how I could have been so dumb

Don't worry, there's piles more we can all be dumb about!

 

[Pete Effamy]

I'd forgotten about this question I asked in April.
Three months later I wonder how I could have been so dumb Stuff that seemed so complex and alien is slowly becoming second nature.

I'm finding this a bizarre and wonderful journey.

Don’t feel that way. Music isn’t obvious at all

 

[JSL]

As pointed out several times already, the final cadence, ending on the tonic, will usually give you the answer. But I also find that, for the most part, you can hear the minor tonality as the tune unfolds.

Any song is usually in either a major key or a minor key.

You can try changing which can be quite fun, but not a normal thing to do.

Yeah, most tunes are in either major or minor. However, in some (rare?) cases it can be a bit ambiguous if say, a tune in a minor key, temporarily modulates to the relative major. I remember when my band first started playing the Louis Jordan tune "Is You is or is You Ain't my Baby". The tune is in F minor, but there's a section where it resolves to the relative major, Ab. That kind of threw me and made me question whether the tune was major or minor, but since for the most part, it's in the minor key, I'd say it's in F minor.

 

[JSL]

I should add one more thing about "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby". That tune (written in 1943) starts with a classic descending minor line (usually 2 bars): 1 b7 b6 5. That's pretty much a dead giveaway it's in a minor key.

 

[skeller047]

OK, regarding cadences, what about a tune like Invitation? It ends on Eb minor (with a major 7th in the melody!). But it starts in C minor, and similar to All The Things You Are, modulates through several key centers before returning to C minor (and Eb minor).

Most people would say All The Things is in Ab, since it ends there, and starts there. But Invitation doesn't have this convenient set of bookends... Most of the sheet music I've seen for Invitation has the key signature of Eb major / C minor. So I guess it's in the "key of C minor", but it sure doesn't stay there very long.

All to say that once we reach the Romantic period of classical music, key centers become a little bit fluid... and many pop and movie music composers embrace the ambiguity. (Branislaw Kaper gave us Invitation, from the movie of the same name. Also he gave us Green Dolphin Street, which is a little more straightforward, harmonically speaking.)

@Pete Thomas 's point is good though, often the melody can give us clues. But remember that a lot of harmonic conventions have arisen because of melodic considerations. The 13th in the dominant chord, for example, first made its appearance in works from the late classical/early Romantic periods. Probably some diva told a composer that singing the third of the key at the climax sounded good... and when a diva speaks, composers listen, as they are often closer to the source of funding. 🙂

 

[progger]

Yep, plenty of jazz repertoire (including American Songbook tunes) won't stay "in a key" for very long! By the time we're in the early 20th Century in Western music, tonal center has become very flexible. It's often more useful to think of certain sections of a piece/song/tune as being in a general key rather than the entire thing. Try thinking of "Inner Urge" or "Central Park West" in just one key...

For songs like "Autumn Leaves," which stays around one tonal center, I think it's useful to think of it as being in both its relative minor and major keys at the same time! It's one of the songbook standards that might be fun to analyze with some Nashville numerology, let's see if this spell summons a demon wearing a sequined cowboy hat and neon blue boots:

2, 5, 1, 4, 7, 3(7), 6... 2, 5, 1 4, 7, 3(7), 6... vii, 3(7), 6... 2, 5, 1... 7, 3(7), 6, 2(7), 5(min), 1(7), 4, 3(7), 6... (KLAATU, BARADA, NIKTO)

Anyhow. "Autumn Leaves" definitely sounds to me like it centers around its minor key more than its relative major. But conceptually, either concept will work. The Nashville method, which (as far as I know) pretty much always uses the relative major key for its number system, doesn't work with a ton of jazz tunes but it works well with this one.

 

[JSL]

2, 5, 1, 4, 7, 3(7), 6... 2, 5, 1 4, 7, 3(7), 6..

Yes, Autumn Leaves has a strong cycle of 4ths movement. I also think of it as moving, in the first 8 bars, first to the relative major (IV, VII, III in minor is II, V, I in the relative major), then back into the minor key (VI, II, V, I in the minor key). But it can also be viewed as a 'minor cycle' moving from the IV minor. Hope that's not too confusing. I definitely hear & think of it as primarily in a minor key.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Les feuilles morte. All this numerical analysis. Just listen to the leaves falling and tumbling and swirling, while thinking of a lost love.

The Google translation of the French lyric has the la la la bit as the the the. 🤗

 

[JSL]

Les feuilles morte. All this numerical analysis. Just listen to the leaves falling and tumbling and swirling, while thinking of a lost love.

I know, I know. Point taken.