Tech/maintenance Key Rod Wobble

[SaxBerg]

I have a saxophone where the key rod wobbles inside the bottom post right hand (lower stack). The key rod is fitted from below, so the wobble is at the slotted end of the rod. A consequence of this defect is that there is a lot of movement in the low "D" key.

I have read that one common way to repair key rod wobble inside posts is to use a special set of pliars to compress the post head.

Is there a DIY or temporary fix for this kind of problem? Is it possible to fit a sleeve on the key rod inside the post? Teflon tape?

 

[Stephen Howard]

Sounds like a soprano? They usually have a rod screw that's inserted via the lowest pillar.

It's a fair bet that if you have wear in the pillar then you also have it in the key barrels...unless it was made that way.
The common fix is to 'peen' the pillar with a special pair of pliers. A better fix is to ream out the pillar and fit a bush - or ream out the whole stack and fit an oversized rod screw.

Bodge fixes include hammering a flat on the end of the rod screw so that it wedges into the pillar. This is not a reversible fix.
Another bodge is superglue. Undo the screw until the threaded end just comes out of its pillar then screw in back in half a turn. Degrease the exposed end of the screw (don't degrease the pillar), then pop a drop of superglue on the rod. Do the screw up and clean off any dribbles. Check the D key still moves. Leave for a couple of hours. You can also use epoxy adhesive - it's easier to clean up because it takes much longer to set.
A slightly more 'advanced' version of this fix is to put a blob of soft solder on the rod - but this will only work if you have a gas gun and a lathe.

Teflon tape will work but it tends to be one hell of a job to get it to follow the rod into the pillar.

 

[SaxBerg]

Sounds like a soprano? They usually have a rod screw that's inserted via the lowest pillar.

It's a fair bet that if you have wear in the pillar then you also have it in the key barrels...unless it was made that way.
The common fix is to 'peen' the pillar with a special pair of pliers. A better fix is to ream out the pillar and fit a bush - or ream out the whole stack and fit an oversized rod screw.

Bodge fixes include hammering a flat on the end of the rod screw so that it wedges into the pillar. This is not a reversible fix.
Another bodge is superglue. Undo the screw until the threaded end just comes out of its pillar then screw in back in half a turn. Degrease the exposed end of the screw (don't degrease the pillar), then pop a drop of superglue on the rod. Do the screw up and clean off any dribbles. Check the D key still moves. Leave for a couple of hours. You can also use epoxy adhesive - it's easier to clean up because it takes much longer to set.
A slightly more 'advanced' version of this fix is to put a blob of soft solder on the rod - but this will only work if you have a gas gun and a lathe.

Teflon tape will work but it tends to be one hell of a job to get it to follow the rod into the pillar.

Thank you very much for providing such excellent advice! I have recently read the article "Swedging the keywork - pros and cons" on your website, and together with the information above, I now have some basic knowledge about repair of the saxophone keywork.

I might try a DIY temporary fix of the key rod wobble with teflon tape, but I will probably have to have find a good saxophone technician for a proper repair.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Stephen Howard I wonder if a dab of HMG on rod end would do ? Cooled then running in. I think the pillar would just scrape off the excess to a net fit. Non intrusive and reversible.

 

[skeller047]

On my Beaugnier alto, the pivot screws have some kind of goo on the threads to keep them from turning. If I ever clean that stuff off, I will put purple Loctite on in its place. These are “headless” pivot screws which are screwed in until the key starts to bind, then backed off a little (like 1/8 turn) so the key moves freely. I know other horns have a slit in headless pivot screws with some kind of rubber or plastic wedge that accomplishes the same thing.

The point being, for a loose rod screw, is purple Loctite on the threads a viable approach until you can get it to a tech? And what about clear nail polish? That seems to be a time-honored bodge…

NB - purple Loctite is weak and will hold a fastener in place, but the bond is easy to break. It’s meant to be temporary. Don't use regular Loctite anywhere on a saxophone.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Don't use regular Loctite anywhere on a saxophone.

But isn’t regular loctite also temporary? Ie not budge with regular loose but should give way under the force of a tool like a screwdriver or wrench?

 

[skeller047]

But isn’t regular loctite also temporary? Ie not budge with regular loose but should give way under the force of a tool like a screwdriver or wrench?

There are several grades of Loctite. Some are permanent and once cured cannot be released without damaging the material.

The standard “red” Loctite requires heat from a torch to let go, which makes it unsuitable for use on a sax, as solder also lets go at those temperatures.

The color grades are an indication of how strong the bond is. They also have numbers, but lots of people use the informal color descriptions. Purple is the weakest, number 222, and is made specifically as a low strength thread locker.

I probably shouldn’t have even mentioned this, so I will say again, don’t use Loctite on your sax unless you really know what you are doing. Only the “purple” Loctite 222 is safe on a saxophone. Even the blue grade is too strong, it’s meant for automotive use. And only use a tiny bit of the stuff.

 

[Stephen Howard]

@Stephen Howard I wonder if a dab of HMG on rod end would do ? Cooled then running in. I think the pillar would just scrape off the excess to a net fit. Non intrusive and reversible.

I've never got it to work - it's just too viscous even when hot.

 

[Stephen Howard]

The point being, for a loose rod screw, is purple Loctite on the threads a viable approach until you can get it to a tech? And what about clear nail polish? That seems to be a time-honored bodge…

NB - purple Loctite is weak and will hold a fastener in place, but the bond is easy to break. It’s meant to be temporary. Don't use regular Loctite anywhere on a saxophone.

It's not that the rod screw is loose, it's that the pillar at the head of the screw is worn - so the screw can move in the lateral plane.

While purple loctite (222) is the go-to for action work there are times when blue (243) is better suited to the job in hand. You can also regulate its holding power by using it very frugally rather than splashing it all over (a li'll dab'll do ya). In any event it gives way with modest heat.

 

[Reedswinds]

Is it a screw of hinge rod? Sound like a hinge rod. I would think using an oversized hinge rod would be the ideal solution here, most likely improving the entire lower stack fit and feel. The exception would be if it is only the post that is loose, then silver soldering a sleeve with a smaller id than needed and opening it up to fit would be the most straight forward .

 

[Stephen Howard]

Is it a screw of hinge rod? Sound like a hinge rod. I would think using an oversized hinge rod would be the ideal solution here, most likely improving the entire lower stack fit and feel. The exception would be if it is only the post that is loose, then silver soldering a sleeve with a smaller id than needed and opening it up to fit would be the most straight forward .

Pillar bushing? You really don't need to go down the silver solder route, especially when dealing with rib-mounted pillars.
Soft solder is plenty good enough.
But there are other options if it's just a single pillar that's worn.
More than one then yes, upsizing the rod/hinge screw is the way to go.

 

[Reedswinds]

Pillar bushing? You really don't need to go down the silver solder route, especially when dealing with rib-mounted pillars.
Soft solder is plenty good enough.
But there are other options if it's just a single pillar that's worn.
More than one then yes, upsizing the rod/hinge screw is the way to go.

True if the post is ribbed, you should not use silver solder, (I just work on too many vintage horns to assume they are all ribbed)just too big of a headache. Instead I would also opt for soft solder. Drilling out the post hole a bit to make sure the sleeve insert has an optimum amount of surface contact for the solder. Soft solder is always easier, just not as strong or foolproof, but in this case it should more than suffice. I would go with silver solder though if it was not a ribbed. I am probably just paranoid but don't trust soft solder as much, especially if the post. is not ribbed, because I can see it getting knotted off, or some young tech or worse yet a home diy tech needs to solder it for some reason, and doesn't realize it was sleeved. Ould turning a mess. But like I said I get paranoid about small details and "what if" at times. And still I almost always like the oversized hinge rod, as it can give new life to and stability to the entire stack. Of course there have been times where I have seen the post/pillar so damaged that a combination of a sleeve and oversized rod were needed, because the post was extremely loose as a result of prior shoddy repair work. To the point where overseeing the rod would require removing too much material from the inside of the keys hinge tubes.

 

[Stephen Howard]

True if the post is ribbed, you should not use silver solder, (I just work on too many vintage horns to assume they are all ribbed)just too big of a headache. Instead I would also opt for soft solder. Drilling out the post hole a bit to make sure the sleeve insert has an optimum amount of surface contact for the solder. Soft solder is always easier, just not as strong or foolproof, but in this case it should more than suffice. I would go with silver solder though if it was not a ribbed. I am probably just paranoid but don't trust soft solder as much, especially if the post. is not ribbed, because I can see it getting knotted off, or some young tech or worse yet a home diy tech needs to solder it for some reason, and doesn't realize it was sleeved. Ould turning a mess. But like I said I get paranoid about small details and "what if" at times. And still I almost always like the oversized hinge rod, as it can give new life to and stability to the entire stack. Of course there have been times where I have seen the post/pillar so damaged that a combination of a sleeve and oversized rod were needed, because the post was extremely loose as a result of prior shoddy repair work. To the point where overseeing the rod would require removing too much material from the inside of the keys hinge tubes.

I appreciate and applaud your belt-and-braces approach - but if you ever find yourself being doubtful about your materials or techniques, test them.
You can resolder a pillar with a soft-soldered bushing because even in the worst-case scenario (overheating) the bush simply has nowhere to go. The solder will simply reflow. I'm assuming, of course, that the bush was made to be a snug fit.

Likewise, I appreciate the point about a DIYer getting hold of the horn but it's worth bearing in mind that this sort of complex action work tends to be most common on horns with an intrinsic value - be that age or cost. When someone's splashed out several hundred pounds to have a horn rebuilt they're not going to be at all inclined to have at it with a soldering gun at a later date. As for bodgy techs, well, they gotta learn sometime 🙂

I've never yet come across a situation where fitting an oversized rod screw would compromise the wall thickness of a barrel/hinge tube - excepting the ends of a barrel when previous bodgy repairs and/or severe wear have left things a bit on the lean side. In such cases it's a relatively simply job to fit a sleeve over the barrel.
But that's not to say that such a situation couldn't occur.

 

[Reedswinds]

I am new here, but far from new in the craft. Started officially in 1991. Went school/apprenticed for a few years/struck out on my own, worked for a small mom and pops/ then managed the shop for one of the top family owned music companies in the states for 17 years. Our company made the top 100 and then top 50 in the country, in MMR magazine.
I was often surprised at what people will try and do on their own, and am very cautious for a reason. It seems now with YouTube University, etc, people without the proper skills feel even more empowered than ever, to try diy repair. Some can do fairly well, but most leave a bit to be desired. Many self declared professionals are no better.
I have come across situations where If I had tried to oversize rod it would have taken way too much material away from the hinge tube, putting it in a state where further swedging or oversizing, would cease to be a option. Not something I have seen a lot, but more than once. For that's enough. It was always the result poor work that had been done in the past. I have seen posts drill out, because someone thought it would fix a binding key.
I do not repair just to the instrument in proper playing condition when it leaves my bench, but rather to make sure it can also be worked the future as well, many times over. So I always make sure to look ti use the technique that were the best over time and do the least amount of harm.
I do agree that it is much faster, and more lucrative to soft solder a sleeve than to silver solder, and that the average player would never know or care much which approach was used. I still do what makes me the most comfortable with the outcome, both for the current state of mechanical integrity and longevity.
When I was running the shop for Samuel Music, I was the person who got to see what came across the bench from multiple stores from the benches of multiple techs and then take over when something was out of the norm, so I suppose I was exposed to more serious issues than most technicians over that time. During that time, I was able to see direct evidence, of what people will try to do on their own, and just how bad that can turn out. A father or friend with a pair of pliers there hand, ready to help, is all to common. So is that soldering gun, scary part is, I have seen solder jobs done by a very famous keyboard warrior from the south, that was so ugly it looked like it was done with a soldering gun. Nothing surprises me anymore.
I mean if it gets too bad, one can always just replace the hinge tube entirely , but life is too short, to do that very often.

While we have this discussion, let me stay that I thank you for writing the book, so that people might have some kind of reliable information to use, instead of trying to learn from product advertisements online, disguised as tutorials.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I used to be surprised at what folks would do on their own but alas no longer. Amazed, perhaps.
Likewise the 'pros' - some of whose work you can see on my Black Museum page.
I also keep a 'Little Black Book' in the workshop - it's a sort of 'Whodunnit?' of horns that have been brought in after and as a result of being repaired elsewhere.

I broadly agree, though, that you have to do the sort of work that makes you feel like you've done a good job.
That's why, for example, clients sometimes notice that I've changed one more pad than I've charged for....because in the time between the horn coming off the bench and the pre-collection inspection, one of the pads threw a small leak in spite of a reset.
I always work on the principle of "If it was my horn, what would I do?" And sometimes "What wouldn't I do?"

Thanks for the kind comments re. the book. As much as I hope it's been responsible to helping players figure out how to keep their horns in good shape, I also hope it's made a few think "Opps, better not try that!"