Tech/maintenance Just a general question to sax maintainers and repairers

[jonf]

I still work on horns that have Gordon Beeson pads that are in good nick. Some of those go back to the '60s.
Mind you, my PL YAS-62 still has some original Yamaha pads on it. An awful lot depends on how wet a player you are. Some can trash an upper stack in three years or so.

I have a full set of Gordon Beeson pads on my Buescher Truetone soprano, all still in good order. I don't know when they were fitted as I bought the sax second hand, in 1985, and they were on it then.

 

[Reedswinds]

Many thanks for all the replies so far. All very helpful!

Especially the points about - as @Pete Thomas said - .


This is something I'd intended to do but didn't express it very well. I have asked around in the sax section of my Big Band about which 'maintainers/repairers' they use and what their experience has been.

I just 'play my sax' and I have little or no knowledge of (or insight into) its current condition or the working parts (rods, springs, corks, pads, etc.). So whenever I feel that 'my playing' is not as good at it should be, my first assumption is that it's due to me. If 'the problem' persists, I get my sax (just to be sure) checked out. My local 'sax lady' usually quickly (in 5-10 minutes) checks 'the mechanics' and uses a light to check for any leaks. She once replaced the top 3 pads which she said were cracked. But up until now, she's refused to enter into an annual 'maintenance contract' or spend any more time on 'maintenance', because - in her view - the 'screws are stuck fast'. So for my sax, her 'service' - while generally excellent! - is limited to 'quick analysis and quick fixes' for any problems I report.

So I just feel that I want a more 'in-depth' check of my sax's condition. With recommendations about how to improve its 'playability'. The websites of Sax shops in NL often quote different 'levels' of maintenance (at different prices). From 'small maintenance' to 'large maintenance' to 'complete revision'. The difference between these are the things that are checked and potentially fixed (based on hours spent).

So I don't want a 'complete revision' if it's not necessary. As @Pete Thomas (and others) have said, I want to find a local 'sax maintenance/repairer' who will check out my sax, identify any issues that that need to be fixed, and give me a ball-park 'quote' on the price. And of, course, I will phone my local 'sax lady' first! She's above all very honest. If she declines, she will undoubtely recommend other local sax 'maintainers/repairers' who may be better qualified to do the work. Just for her integrity and honesty, she will always remain my 'go to' sax lady!

Just a couple of 'tributes' to my local sax lady;
- Most 'quick analyses and fixes' for my occasional 'playing problems' are free of charge. In her words: "I've spent 5-10 minutes, it would take me even longer to enter and send a bill"; In return for this 'free service", I buy any and all 'sax accessories' via her webshop.
- She once refused to sell me Légère reeds unless I brought along my sax and mpc to try them out (at different strengths); her motivation was "I don't want to sell anything to anyone that may not be suitable and which may lead to disappointment over their purchase"
- Looking to buy a new sax bag (rucksack), I had the 'best' (= most expensive) in mind. She advised me to buy a brand/model which was 'just as good' for half the price. I can imagine that she might have got less 'sales commission' on the cheaper model than on the more expensive model
- Over many years, it's become very clear to me that she (as a person) is much more focused on building an ongoing (honest) 'customer relationship' rather than on 'quick profits'. TBH, I doubt whether this is any kind of 'business strategy' on her part. I just think that the way she conducts her 'business' is a true reflection of her personal values and personality.
- I'm not a regular visitor to her 'sax shop', but we've sometimes spent to up to 30 minutes talking about 'personal issues' that are going on in our lives. So we have a 'personal connection' in addition to any 'sax issues'

As nice and honest as she is, if a stuck screw is a roadblock to more in depth repair work, find a better tech.
Sorry to be blunt, but that doesn't sound like a competent technichian, as stuck and frozen parts are just part of the everyday job. They are not anything unusual. Now without putting an instrument into top playing condition I can understand not wanting to put you on an annual contract. I don't offer them ow that I am independent, but when I was running a larger shop , an instrument needed to be put into good playing condition before we offered such a thing. Maybe thats's what she meant, that you would need two have more work done first. It also may be because it is not a newer model of instrument. Most places that offer contracts don't do it for vintage instruments. Like was discussed before many techs, do not have the skill set or desire to deal with the issues involved with vintage repair, which often require more prep work, unless the instrument has been properly maintained. Lots of worn out mechanisms, misaligned posts, damage from poor repairs done in the past, stuck and or frozen or binding parts. The can be a can or worms, also very rewarding if you enjoy that type of thing. 🙂

 

[Stephen Howard]

As nice and honest as she is, if a stuck screw is a roadblock to more in depth repair work, find a better tech.

I'll second that.
Freeing corroded/stuck rod and point screws are everyday jobs.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is that the Alt F#?

Yes F#

 

[PigSquealer]

@MikeMorrell you purchased an 45 year old sax. Then used it another 20 years. All with no COA or pad service ?
And now you’re comparing to a new unit. No doubt there’s some difference as noted.
I’m sure your local “sax lady” has been kind in keeping your unit running, but she most likely sees other needs and doesn’t comment. Some techs don’t. They only repair to the requested needs. Appears that you have a long term service relationship with her. Ask for a full review due to your recent experience. Ask if this is within her interests of doing the work. If not ask for a referral.
As far as need of a vintage specialist. Any well seasoned tech should be qualified. With age comes wisdom. I would be cautious with a younger tech.

Asking AI 🤣 maybe for instructions on baking a chicken ? But would you really eat that ?

 

[PigSquealer]

Very true. They often haven't been exposed to many vintage mechanisms either, and have parts available to them for whatever they do work on. Becase of that, they have yet to develop the ability to fabricate, or problem solve and understand unfamiliar mechanisms on the fly. I have run into this a lot with recent graduates and newer techs I have mentored. They seem have learned a lotto what to do in school, without the why, that allows them to think through what they are observing.

Well stated. This isn’t unique to instrument repair. It’s common to all trades. IMHO schools are only teaching the most common basics.

 

[JayeNM]

O

Just a couple of 'tributes' to my local sax lady;
- Most 'quick analyses and fixes' for my occasional 'playing problems' are free of charge. In her words: "I've spent 5-10 minutes, it would take me even longer to enter and send a bill"; In return for this 'free service", I buy any and all 'sax accessories' via her webshop.
- She once refused to sell me Légère reeds unless I brought along my sax and mpc to try them out (at different strengths); her motivation was "I don't want to sell anything to anyone that may not be suitable and which may lead to disappointment over their purchase"
- Looking to buy a new sax bag (rucksack), I had the 'best' (= most expensive) in mind. She advised me to buy a brand/model which was 'just as good' for half the price. I can imagine that she might have got less 'sales commission' on the cheaper model than on the more expensive model
- Over many years, it's become very clear to me that she (as a person) is much more focused on building an ongoing (honest) 'customer relationship' rather than on 'quick profits'. TBH, I doubt whether this is any kind of 'business strategy' on her part. I just think that the way she conducts her 'business' is a true reflection of her personal values and personality.
- I'm not a regular visitor to her 'sax shop', but we've sometimes spent to up to 30 minutes talking about 'personal issues' that are going on in our lives. So we have a 'personal connection' in addition to any 'sax issues'

I am not gonna beat her up on this stuff. It's perfectly fine to have a tech to do quick, limited repairs for cheap and keep the horn playing. Quite honestly, having someone like that near you is fortunate.

But as others have intimated, they probably are not the best choice of a shop to assess the need for larger scopes of work....

 

[JayeNM]

Quick example...here's the sorta things which might NOT ever get addressed nor assessed which DO have an effect on 'making the horn play better' (besides leaky pads)....

Removing 'double action' in keys....this means, for example, interlinking or interconnected keys like the A to Bis relationship, the F, E; D lower stack to F#relationship, and the pinky C#, B to G# relationship are all dialed in. So often glossed over by techs because since they will not cause a horn not to speak, they are lower priority - but they will create a feeling under the fingers... of keys, when pressed, 'hitting something' before actually engaging the linked key closed or open....

.... I.e. you hit an A during which you feel the A touch hit the Bis cup THEN close. Likewise you finger a low B and you initially feel the B touch 'hit' the G# BEFORE the B key closes the hole and depresses the G# touch...

Keyheight adjustment - for optimal intonation adjustment. Again, oftentimes omitted in 'just get it playing' sorta repairvwork.

Removing key play in the barrels - same thing. Swedging is not exactly an 'art', but...it requires a good hand and some precision. Presence of key play can cause pads to leak 'sometimes' and then not leak sometimes....

A tech does a repad or a partial....but does not attend to those things...will result in the horn 'playing as well' as it would if those are addressed as well. Won't feel as responsive or quick under the fingers...and you may be inadvertently adjusting your embouchure to keep certain notes in tune....

 

[Tenor Viol]

As a general rule, I've always put my saxes in once a year for a 'light service' which usually means things get tightened up, any leaks get sorted and any regulation issues are addressed, and a light lube job. Except the bari, all the saxes are new enough to not really warrant anything more major. I ought to get the bari a full service as it's 30 years old.

 

[MikeMorrell]

@MikeMorrell you purchased an 45 year old sax. Then used it another 20 years. All with no COA or pad service ?
And now you’re comparing to a new unit. No doubt there’s some difference as noted.
I’m sure your local “sax lady” has been kind in keeping your unit running, but she most likely sees other needs and doesn’t comment. Some techs don’t. They only repair to the requested needs. Appears that you have a long term service relationship with her. Ask for a full review due to your recent experience. Ask if this is within her interests of doing the work. If not ask for a referral.
As far as need of a vintage specialist. Any well seasoned tech should be qualified. With age comes wisdom. I would be cautious with a younger tech.

Asking AI 🤣 maybe for instructions on baking a chicken ? But would you really eat that ?

Haha, on baking a chicken no!

But your, @Reedswinds and @JayeNM's comments on my 'sax lady' are very perceptive.

Yes, I have a long-term 'service relationship' with with her. But only as far as 'quick (free) fixes' go. Over the years, I've regularly asked her to sign up to a (paid) annual annual maintenance contract. But she's refused, citing problems such as 'stuck screws'. etc.

I do still completely trust her honesty and integrity on things like accessories, reeds etc. But TBH I don't (in retrospect) think she's much interested in taking on an 'in-depth' evaluation and/or 'refurbishment' of my sax (to the extent that it need to be refurbished!). She probably prefers (my guess) to do light/routine regular maintenance on clarinets and saxes.

That's why I'm looking for a 'good local tech' who is prepared to do a more 'in-depth evaluation and refurbishment'. Giving attention to the points that @JayeNM mentions in Tech/maintenance - Should I get a full saxophone overhaul or just put in top playing condition

I already have few reliable local addresses/phone numbers for ''good sax techs' (given to me by other -vintage- sax players). So I'll phone around and listen to what they say. I'm happy to rent a sax for a couple of months while my current sax is evaluated and 'restored'.

Again, many thanks for all your advice and recommendations!


Mike

 

[Reedswinds]

I would think you find someone you want to work on your instrument and see what they think. If you can have a conversatino with them as they look it over, thats best. Not sure how they do business there, here most placed you would drop off the instrument to a counter person and wait for call or email. I prefer to have a consultation if you will. The client brings in the instrument, and we decide on the course of action together. I try to give them options, and make sure they are able to make a well informed decision on what work will or will not be done. I don't care if its a touring pro of a begging band students parent, everyone deserves good service.

 

[wakyct]

for a couple of months while my current sax is evaluated and 'restored'.

Personally I much prefer to schedule a block of time in advance so the horn is not at the tech for longer than necessary.

Of course the tech has more than one customer and some repairs are a process and take time, and maybe some techs don't like to schedule work this way at all.

 

[Reedswinds]

Thats the best way, I usually give an estimate for whatever work is to be done, then if they wish to go ahead I just require a 25% deposit to secure a spot in the queue. The instrument can be left, or taken with the client and brought back later. The cool thing is the player is rarely without their instruments for more than a week.
This is the advantage of not working in a music store.

 

[PigSquealer]

I would think you find someone you want to work on your instrument and see what they think. If you can have a conversatino with them as they look it over, thats best. Not sure how they do business there, here most placed you would drop off the instrument to a counter person and wait for call or email. I prefer to have a consultation if you will. The client brings in the instrument, and we decide on the course of action together. I try to give them options, and make sure they are able to make a well informed decision on what work will or will not be done. I don't care if its a touring pro of a begging band students parent, everyone deserves good service.

It doesn’t take very long to review what’s needed. Calling ahead to set a meeting time is polite and not a disruption like walking in. Here not all stores have full time repair technicians. Some move from store to store as needed.
Then we have mobile service technicians to service stores as needed. Literally rolling shops. A call to make an appointment is not asking for much. Regardless, the actual technician should give the customer a call at minimum and present the needs and options. Be respectful of the techs time…..works not getting done.

 

[PigSquealer]

Scheduling I do for regular service work. The light stuff like a COA. Daily openings for the unexpected help needed.
The 911 call or someone that calls the day before with small needs, A neck cork, a pad fell out.
Repads, overhauls, mechanical restoration. First in first out.

 

[PigSquealer]

@Reedswinds as a side note. I’ve serviced many horns from customer furnished pictures and asking questions. These being out of my region, state or country. Some directly from customers. Some bought from auctions or private parties and shipped directly here. All options reviewed best / worst case scenarios beforehand. No sugarcoating anything. Making an informed decision from quality conversation & review matters. Trust IMHO is earned when both tech & customer communicate honesty.

 

[Reedswinds]

Where are you located? I grew up in Costa Mesa. I go back now and then to see my mom, be great to meet up and talk shop.

As far as shipping instruments, I have been getting away from that as much as possible. The time it takes to pack up the instrument and ship it, not to mention the communication back and forth and the lack of ability to actually meet the player, hear them tell me in words, not key strokes what is going on and what they want, it is just a big part of the way I prefer to work. Having them play test and then do some final tweaks for them.
A sax or clarinet major, that needs their instrument dialed in for them, because something is just making them nervous right before they have to play for their doctorate. They are able to give you live feedback in real time, and ask for very specific details to be addressed, that might not fit into the generic setup for the instrument. In my area the pool of professionals is so small that I would also take in repairs from all over, many would make the drive and other's had to ship them in, but right now am hoping to reopen in a new local with a larger population soon. If I were ever to move back to Southern California, I would never have to take in jobs by post again. When I was living there, one could hardly keep up with the demand. There were just so many more people.

 

[PigSquealer]

Where are you located? I grew up in Costa Mesa. I go back now and then to see my mom, be great to meet up and talk shop.

Close to Whittier. Let me know when you’re coming out again. Would love to visit 👍

As far as shipping instruments, I have been getting away from that as much as possible. The time it takes to pack up the instrument and ship it, not to mention the communication back and forth and the lack of ability to actually meet the player, hear them tell me in words, not key strokes what is going on and what they want, it is just a big part of the way I prefer to work. Having them play test and then do some final tweaks for them.
A sax or clarinet major, that needs their instrument dialed in for them, because something is just making them nervous right before they have to play for their doctorate. They are able to give you live feedback in real time, and ask for very specific details to be addressed, that might not fit into the generic setup for the instrument. In my area the pool of professionals is so small that I would also take in repairs from all over, many would make the drive and other's had to ship them in, but right now am hoping to reopen in a new local with a larger population soon. If I were ever to move back to Southern California, I would never have to take in jobs by post again. When I was living there, one could hardly keep up with the demand. There were just so many more people.

I help anyway I can. An hour is an hour. In person, on phone, FaceTime or Zoom, texting, emails or PM here. There’s tools to overcome the in person meeting need. A video taken by phone and stated needs can be reviewed multiple times. That’s handy a month from now.
Lots of quality vintage shops conduct business by post.
Support upon customer receipt to make final tweaks is available. I haven’t had any requests for this need.
Return shipping is by customer furnished label. FedEx, UPS & USPS are conveniently located next to grocery store a short distance away. It doesn’t take much time to repack using the same materials as sent.

The demand here hasn’t changed. You could still do well here in Sol California. That as an independent servicing band instruments. All makers & vintages. Most all stores decline (or overprice) pre ‘70 sax work. Overhead / costs of operation is high. Volume is necessary. Overhauling or mechanical restoration is difficult to find.
I do work on modern units, but my specialty and interests are the older the better.