Beginner impro Is it a good idea to write out solos? Or must they be 100% improvised?

Is it a good idea for beginners to write out solos? Is it a helpful thing to encourage?

EDIT: changed to cover all genres not just jazz

 

[cappers]

Great question, one I have pondered as a beginner.

Despite my fumblng attempts at soloing I have been told by my teacher and MD that I have 'good ears' and can capture the feel of a piece.

I have tried writing out solo ideas but when I play them it sounds like I'm reading and playing the notes rather than feeling/hearing what to play in the moment. With repeated practice it becomes more fluent, but to me it is different to doing it on the fly. For me, a rehearsed solo require extensive practice just like any song, whereas improvisation 'on the spot' feels more fluid and natural.

I have started to work out certain phrases/riffs (?) to include in some solis which I can then work around with the melody. For example, I was playing The Preacher and over the last couple of bars of the solo I played something that came into my head and realised that it was the first line of All Things Bright and Beautiful, which not only fitted musically, I thought was funny considering the song.

Like everything saxophonic, I think different approaches work for different players. I prefer 'free style' with an awareness of the chord tones, but it means every solo over a particular song sounds different each time. To me, pre-written solos feel restrictive and don't have the spontaneity and 'feel' of something composed on the spot.

Caveat - I'm still very much a novice so my thoughts about this might change over time and with practise!

 

[mark_addy]

I only had a few clarinet lessons in primary school (they were free then!) so I've always been a 'slow reader'. But I have a few transcriptions - from where I have no idea at all, someone must have given them to me as this was before the internet - and way back when, I learnt one or two of them (bits of Charlie Parker, Lee Konitz...I think). Bits of them have ended up in my riff-memory, which for a player like me who is never going to be 'creative' and who aspires to be 'entertaining', is about as good as it is likely to get.

One problem I have with the internet (Everything!!! All the time!!! In all keys!!!) is that it stops me getting started and sticking to something, because there's always something else. A scrappy piece of paper that I know I can't do yet, keeps me a lot more focussed. I ought to see if I can find the scraps of paper again. And (because I really like it, it's way more than I can do, and I have already posted it in Song of the Month a while ago) there's always this 🙂

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TirLN5mrj9k&list=RDTirLN5mrj9k&start_radio=1


(Arrghh - your question was should beginners write out solos themselves!! Well - I have just no chance of that, because I have a music-writing age of about 5 years old - it barely looks like music, and it takes me about half an hour per bar. So I'll bow out here).

 

[Woodpad]

There is no universal way to learn creativity. Learning from written work of old masters isn't bad. But classical music shows that it can be overwhelming.

 

[mizmar]

More of a question than an answer; but between 0% and 100% - aren't there "waypoints"? Like target tones? Indicators of an overall structure within which one improvises? And such?

I'm just learning improvisation on the flute - somewhat different, idiomatically. That includes transcription & analysis as well as playing. For the transcription part, I learn by ear but rather than write notes on bars, I write down key notes and a variety of squiggly lines and marking to outline phrases etc. Those can be stepping stones to full memorisation and an outline to use to go my own way...
... As a learning tool

 

[Pete Thomas]

There is no universal way to learn creativity.

That is the truth. As a composer I am often given a brief about the job. It often seems to be pure luck if I come up with something acceptable or better within the time frame. There are moments when something just pops into your head and moments when absolutely zilch. Unless you are a genius when I guess the latter never or rarely happens.

Same with impro but of course you don’t have luxury of waiting for the inspiration, the deadline is always now.

Indicators of an overall structure within which one improvises?

Not always

 

[mizmar]

Not always

No but; First, you asked about learners, so an variety of tools to use to progress with.
And, if someone is using a chord chart (or has memorised the progression) aren't they using that to map out waypoints? For ideomatic blues it jazz?

 

[Nick Wyver]

It’s not something I do nowadays but in the past I’ve written out and played a few solos when it seemed appropriate. They’re all pop/rock. I might be able to remember which ones.
Umm…

Pick up the pieces (AWB)
Respect (Aretha)
Let’s stick together (Roxy)
Tequila (Champs)
Will you (Hazel O’Connor)

Well that’s some of them. I’m sure there were others.

On the whole I think it’s a very good idea to have a go at even if you’re a complete beginner. If not complete solos, there are plenty of simple riffs out there - the Tequila one, for instance.

 

[thomsax]

It’s not something I do nowadays but in the past I’ve written out and played a few solos when it seemed appropriate. They’re all pop/rock. I might be able to remember which ones.
Umm…

Pick up the pieces (AWB)
Respect (Aretha)
Let’s stick together (Roxy)
Tequila (Champs)
Will you (Hazel O’Connor)

Well that’s some of them. I’m sure there were others.

On the whole I think it’s a very good idea to have a go at even if you’re a complete beginner. If not complete solos, there are plenty of simple riffs out there - the Tequila one, for instance.

Didn't you send me an outwritten solo of Joe Cocker's version of "Unchain My Heart" with Clarence Clemons solo for many years ago? Maybe I'm wrong .... .

 

[thomsax]

Some bands and players wants a solo close to the recording. An outwritten solo helps if the player is a reader. Some solos are expected to be played close to the recordings. My favourit chistmas rock song is "Christmas Baby, Please Come Home" with Darlene Love. Just one way to learn Steve Douglas solo and that is to learn it tone by tone. So did Bruce Kaplar as well. But in a differnt key.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And, if someone is using a chord chart (or has memorised the progression) aren't they using that to map out waypoints? For ideomatic blues it jazz?

Yes if there are chord changes then yes definitely map out waypoints. I was speaking more generally, as in not all impro has chord changes. Or chords.

 

[dexdex]

Speaking of jazz, I’m a regular follower of Bob Reynold’s videos. An amazing inspiration, he is a brilliant fellow.
He insists on picking up phrases, by ear. Trying to sing/scat them, to internalize the articulation. He recommends to work on short audio loops, finding out every note, one after the other. That lengthy process helps to ingrain the phrase in you memory and fingers.
At the same time, he does NOT insist on learning full solos that way, but rather pieces, he calls them nuggets. It remains your job and freedom to weave those nuggets together, à la Dex or Trane, or your own way.
It could be that writing things down at some stage helps to sort things out, and maybe keep track for once you want to come back to them after some time.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Didn't you send me an outwritten solo of Joe Cocker's version of "Unchain My Heart" with Clarence Clemons solo for many years ago? Maybe I'm wrong .... .

I think I did. 😀

 

[thomsax]

I think I did. 😀

I can't remember if I said say "Thank you very much" back then. I'm not sure so I do it again: "Thanks".

 

[Pete Effamy]

If inexperienced, writing out a solo can show your ideas when not under time pressure - ie improvisation in real time. You may be surprised.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Is it a good idea for beginners to write out solos? Is it a helpful thing to encourage?

EDIT: changed to cover all solis, not just jazz

It depends. On the person but mostly on the context. I agree with @mizmar that beginners should be encouraged to make some kind of notes/annotations w.r.t. 'free solos'. And written-out solos too if this helps them - as a reminder - in playing. There's nothing worse than hitting what I call a 'black wall': time for a sax solo and having mentally no clue what to play!

But it's important too that beginners learn something about 'frameworks' for developing solos. I'm by no means a 'good' soloist, but just off the top of my head:
- basic simple solos (just a couple of notes) can sound effective!; especially if they include repeated patterns (intervals, timing)^*
- playing 'phrases' (with a shorter or longer pause between each one)
- when and why to use pentatonic scales (or not)?
- improvising on 'rhythm' can often be just as effective as improvising on 'melody'
- finding (and using) the 'common notes' between two adjacent chords often sounds great; the 'backing' chords then make your single 'common note' sound interesting (and different between the 2 chords) ^*
- at least in jazz/blues, learn to emphasize the 'blue notes' and 7th notes
_* The most well-known example of a 'simple solo' that works on 'common notes' is the "One Note Samba"

IMHO, the most common "mistake" that amateur sax players at all levels make when playing 'free solos" is to demonstrate their 'sax playing skills' to the detriment of their 'musicality' (for listeners). For me, there's nothing worse than listening to a 'sax soloist' who fills up all the available 'space' with a dazzling flurry of notes which bear no relation to the melody and which nobody (most of all the average listener) has no clue about.

So, notes, annotations, and written-out solos are all fine by me. But IMHO, learn some of the 'basics' of playing (and writing out) solos first.

Mike

PS. FWIW, when I first began to post my own "improvised" solos here on the cafe, I had absolutely no clue! The main feedback I got was "Hmmm ... just keep improvising and learn from your mistakes". Since those far-off days, I've had a lot of good (constructive) feedback from band MD's. I've also participated in a number of 10-week (evening) 'jazz improvisation workshops' from which I learned a lot. Mostly: keep it simple!

At each of the workshops, the pentatonic scales for each of the numbers were written out (for soloists) underneath the band score. So for the 'Blues' numbers, soloists could use use exactly the same pentatonic scale throughout. For non-Blues numbers, the 'pentatonic scales' for different sections were written out.

Over 30 years, I've gradually learned to improvise more 'on the fly' and by ear. Largely by experimenting with a few 'variations' during rehearsals. Keeping any variations that sounded OK as 'options'. And very quickly discarding any 'variations' that just sounded awful!

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Growing up around fine musicians, they would say, I might not be a Giant of Jazz, but I always play pretty. 🎯

Once a beginner can honk out some notes with a good rhythm, using chord notes, or what's considered, scale notes that kinda fit, it might be time to get a bit melodious.
Make it more musical.
If the goal is Funk master, maybe,
you've arrived. 😜

Some will take comments, about their current skills to be a condescending dig, but they might really be, a baton tap to the butt, to get them, their teachers and accomplished musicians, they play with, to help them learn to compose, variations on a tune/theme.
It's a start.

 

[JSL]

I think for a (relative) beginner, writing out solos could be a good learning experience. And it's not just a matter of writing out the notes. The more challenging aspect is probably getting the rhythm correct. Especially if using a fair amount of syncopation, triplets, etc. It can also be a good way to learn theory and work out phrases built on given progressions.

Speaking for myself (I guess I've been playing long enough not to be considered a 'beginner'), I don't write out complete solos, unless maybe a single 12-bar blues chorus to see how the ideas coalesce, but rather I write out ideas that come up when I'm experimenting with various licks, phrases, ii-V, iii-VI-ii-V progressions, etc. I do this so I don't forget a phrase or lick that I discover and want to work on. Also, it can be useful to see how it fits as a 2 or 4 bar phrase. The only problem is I now have pages of random licks & phrases. I should organize them all into categories. Maybe someday I'll get around to it. But meanwhile, I just try to get it all memorized and 'internalized'. A lot of it eventually comes out in solos on the bandstand, which is the main goal.

I rarely, if ever, write out the head of a tune that I learn from a recording. For the simple reason that, if necessary, I can go back to the recording if I need further work memorizing it or reviewing it.

p.s. I should add that this is my own experience and I'm not sure how useful it would be for a beginner. As already stated, there is more than one way to learn.

 

[LostCircuits]

I think to answer this, we first need to define what writing out means because it could be a lot of things. Of course, the most obvious way is "sheet music" but not everybody reads music.

In my early guitar days I wrote music as a line, often augmented with colors to capture the flow of what I wanted to do, and then added some of the key changes or "odd" chords and it worked just fine for me. Very similar in principle to what @JSL just mentioned in post #18.

And once in awhile I find a forgotten binder with songs I haven't played in forever but my annotations are the mnemonic bridge even after years and years.

Other than that, I still believe that a "solo" or improv is mostly situational, especially when you play R&B with a lot of call and response and spontaneous "jam flow" of the music. If you lock yourself into a perfectly well rehearsed solo, even being asked to do another go around can be completely disastrous.

But luckily we have other forms of music, too. Like blues. And jazz.

 

[JSL]

Other than that, I still believe that a "solo" or improv is mostly situational, especially when you play R&B with a lot of call and response and spontaneous "jam flow" of the music. If you lock yourself into a perfectly well rehearsed solo, even being asked to do another go around can be completely disastrous.

But luckily we have other forms of music, too. Like blues. And jazz.

+1. I'd also say that what you point out about the improv being situational definitely applies to blues & jazz, maybe even moreso than R&B, where you might be playing a 'signature solo'.