Beginner impro Is it a good idea to write out solos? Or must they be 100% improvised?

Is it a good idea for beginners to write out solos? Is it a helpful thing to encourage?

EDIT: changed to cover all genres not just jazz

 

[Colin the Bear]

I think we're mixing up a solo and improvisation.

One or the other may not be relevant depending on situation and genre.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Might composition be like, improvisation, but with the opportunity for correction, to make it sound wonderful, when played?
Learning Bach, Telemann, and the music from those days, is helpful to learn about theme and variations.

 

[Joe from New Orleans]

Is it a good idea for beginners to write out solos? Is it a helpful thing to encourage?

EDIT: changed to cover all genres not just jazz

Jerry Gray used to do it when he was arranging for Glen Miller.

 

[JSL]

I think we're mixing up a solo and improvisation.

One or the other may not be relevant depending on situation and genre.

True. Of course, there's such a thing as an improvised solo, as well as a pre-conceived solo. Almost always I'm playing an improvised solo, but on a few tunes, I have a 'standard' solo that I use on the first chorus, then improvise on the next chorus. I find that to work just fine. Also, as I alluded to in my previous post, there are tunes where a 'signature solo' is appropriate (and expected). The one example I can think of is "Honky Tonk", where the tenor solo is iconic and pretty standard. That doesn't mean you can't alter it to an extent, but it works well to keep it close to the original, especially the first time through. After that, in a more extended solo, anything goes.

 

[LostCircuits]

True. Of course, there's such a thing as an improvised solo, as well as a pre-conceived solo. Almost always I'm playing an improvised solo, but on a few tunes, I have a 'standard' solo that I use on the first chorus, then improvise on the next chorus. I find that to work just fine. Also, as I alluded to in my previous post, there are tunes where a 'signature solo' is appropriate (and expected). The one example I can think of is "Honky Tonk", where the tenor solo is iconic and pretty standard. That doesn't mean you can't alter it to an extent, but it works well to keep it close to the original, especially the first time through. After that, in a more extended solo, anything goes.

There are a number of similar cases, Eddie Money, Sade, Springsteen (Clarence Clemons) or Pink Floyd where the audience expects a "signature" line that has little to do with improv but if you lay on top of that with your own take after going through the known phrases, there is nothing wrong. And, of course it applies to guitar just the same way.

And then you look at Joe Cocker and Deric Dyer vs. Norbert Frimmel. Same song, very different take.

 

[mark_addy]

True. Of course, there's such a thing as an improvised solo, as well as a pre-conceived solo. Almost always I'm playing an improvised solo, but on a few tunes, I have a 'standard' solo that I use on the first chorus, then improvise on the next chorus. I find that to work just fine. Also, as I alluded to in my previous post, there are tunes where a 'signature solo' is appropriate (and expected). The one example I can think of is "Honky Tonk", where the tenor solo is iconic and pretty standard. That doesn't mean you can't alter it to an extent, but it works well to keep it close to the original, especially the first time through. After that, in a more extended solo, anything goes.

The trumpet solo for 'Moanin' comes to mind! I don't know who came up with it, but I know it when I hear it.

 

[mark_addy]

Jerry Gray used to do it when he was arranging for Glen Miller.

You had me looking up the arranger for 'American Patrol' - ta dah! Now I have dah dah, di-di da-dah, di-di da da ; di-di di-di da-dah for an ear worm at bed time. Thanks 🙂

 

[turf3]

If you are playing African American improvised music, precomposing solos is antithetical to the whole concept.

There can be great instructional value in learning someone else's solos note for note, but just like you don't play scale exercises in performance, you don't play someone else's solos in performance.

I know there are groups where they reproduce a famous recording note for note, but that's a party trick, not creative musicianship.

 

[mark_addy]

If you are playing African American improvised music, precomposing solos is antithetical to the whole concept.

There can be great instructional value in learning someone else's solos note for note, but just like you don't play scale exercises in performance, you don't play someone else's solos in performance.

I know there are groups where they reproduce a famous recording note for note, but that's a party trick, not creative musicianship.

Ooof - no mercy!

 

[Tonehole]

If you are playing African American improvised music, precomposing solos is antithetical to the whole concept.

There can be great instructional value in learning someone else's solos note for note, but just like you don't play scale exercises in performance, you don't play someone else's solos in performance.

I know there are groups where they reproduce a famous recording note for note, but that's a party trick, not creative musicianship.

I agree.
But learning to throw down Trane solos definitely will raise your level of play and the majority of players cannot do it. Problem is if they become too ingrained they can become an instinctive fall back and can restrict your own creativity when improvising on the fly. Took me years to get them out of my system after burning them in as a young player.

I would write down solos as a young player for high school, Big or Jazz bands. Allowed me to practice and master it. Often the director would hand out a pre written solo for you to practice especially for competitions. Part of learning and mastering the instrument. Some of the pro Big Bands I have played in have had written solo pieces. Could be for those who are not proficient in it or to keep the soloist in harmony with the piece being preformed. As I have been told at times. LOL

It is tough to transpose a skilled players solos let alone play them. It requires skill, talent and training. Ai has dumbed it down / simplified it but it won't duplicate all the nuisance yet. I still sit down at the piano to transpose a complex and challenging piece that I am really intense about. Transposing helps when it comes to playing it.

I tend to prefer to play a solo for a piece on the fly and take different directions any time I repeat it. Always searching for something better in the moment. While soloing one realises the alternatives one could have made as you pass them by. Endless paths to follow.

 

[skeller047]

Change “write out” to “work out” and I think it’s valuable. Like @JL I keep a bunch of half-filled unorganized notebooks of stuff I want to work on. But I rarely go back over them, a week or two on one idea is enough. I am very disorganized…. but those ideas do work their way into my playing over time.

For a beginning improvisor, figuring out an approach to a solo, especially if it’s an important performance, is a good idea. But the goal should be, in my opinion, to internalize that approach as soon as possible. In other words, try to play with it, change up the phrasing, maybe leave part out, or add something new. Get away from the paper as soon as possible. In other words, treat the solo like you might play the “head” of a tune, same notes but different phrasing. Practice it - play it a bunch of times, like hundreds. It’s YOUR solo, make it belong to you.

This is also a common practice for skilled jazz players at their peak. Go listen to some of the reissue albums from the 1960s, especially Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, Art Blakey, Dexter, etc. Lots of the reissues have “alternate takes”, and you will often hear intros or whole choruses that are repeated, not necessarily verbatim, but a lot of the same phrases and ideas. Pros “work out” their solos in advance too.

Part of being an improvisor is becoming familiar with the material you use to improvise. You have to practice improvising.

 

[Tonehole]

Despite my fumblng attempts at soloing I have been told by my teacher and MD that I have 'good ears' and can capture the feel of a piece.

I have tried writing out solo ideas but when I play them it sounds like I'm reading and playing the notes rather than feeling/hearing what to play in the moment. With repeated practice it becomes more fluent, but to me it is different to doing it on the fly. For me, a rehearsed solo require extensive practice just like any song, whereas improvisation 'on the spot' feels more fluid and natural.


Caveat - I'm still very much a novice so my thoughts about this might change over time and with practise!

You are on the right track like giving a speech, talk, presentation whatever. You script it, and then you read it out loud, Then you modify it as the written word is not how one speaks, it sounds stilted. Then you rehearse it and memorise it. But memorisation is not the same as knowing it. If you get lost or stop for a moment you may not be able to carry on without checking your notes. Pun intended. When you truly know it you can stop adjust and get back on track.

I won a piano recital competition for this same reason. The best competitor in my mind stumbled on the very challenging piece, tried to carry on a few times but was lost on it. She had lost her rhythm and place in the piece. She started over and gave a complete and stunning performance. When it was my turn on the piece I also stumbled but continued on. But I was able to go back in the piece to a spot that fit and played from there with no hesitation and it sounded seamless to those who did not know the piece or have a good ear to catch that one note. The adjudicators knew and awarded me First place.

So write it, play it, record it, listen to it and adjust it, repeat.

 

[thomsax]

I know there are groups where they reproduce a famous recording note for note, but that's a party trick, not creative musicianship.

Creative musicianship what's that? To play in a creative way on your sax and have the talk and jokes between the songs outwritten in excel?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I see nothing wrong, even if soloing in the genre is usually improvised. But as an aid to learning how to improvise although if it was a performance I’d advise that it was learned rather than read.

Not that I think it’s always wrong to read at a performance but so that you actually know it well enough to make it sound better than if you are attempting to read it. As cappers and Tonehole have touched on above.

 

[mrblackbat]

Couple of different things here this could mean.

Is it worthwhile working out a “solo” ahead of time for a song? Yes. Is it worth writing that down? Yes can very helpful for analysis or for example turning it into a contrafact.

Then another way to interpret this: is it worthwhile writing transcribing your own solo after the fact? Yes. And is it worth writing that down? Yes for the same reasons it can be worth writing any solo down: for analysis purposes.

I would advocate against reading a written solo though, where possible. I think it’s better to not be reading music when performing.

 

[mark_addy]

I am in awe of a lot of posters here - I wish I could read better, write a bit, and transcribe at all. I have to play a 16 bar solo in C#m in a couple of weeks with our big band. I am preparing by playing all the minor tunes I know in that one key for the meantime, so that I stand a chance of finding my way around it when the evil day comes (OK, I enjoy it really). I suspect the solo might turn out to be a bit quote-heavy on the day...

 

[Pete Thomas]

I suspect the solo might turn out to be a bit quote-heavy on the day...

Nothing wrong with that, sounds like you are preparing for this in a good way.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

You can change the value, of some of the notes, and make it a soulful start, for a ballad, as opposed it's original allegro.
Just a melodic approach to improv.

Where will you go, after the last F?

 

[PiccoloPirate]

I am in awe of a lot of posters here - I wish I could read better, write a bit, and transcribe at all. I have to play a 16 bar solo in C#m in a couple of weeks with our big band. I am preparing by playing all the minor tunes I know in that one key for the meantime, so that I stand a chance of finding my way around it when the evil day comes (OK, I enjoy it really). I suspect the solo might turn out to be a bit quote-heavy on the day...

You might also try to sing/hum along with those tunes, to internalize, and do the same for creating your solo.
The horn can get in the way of your music, depending on your skills.

 

[thomsax]

I would like to read the other things ...... . To read about a song can be useful as well.

John Fogerty wrote:
"One of big parts parts of "Proud Mary" came from paying very close atention to male gospel harmonies. The "Rollin', rollin', rollin' on the river has to explode. You don't just go "Rollin', rollin', rollin' on the river" it's "RRRROllin'", "RRRROllin'","RRRROllin'". You are slurring up the note real quick, and your vocal energy happens all at once. You have to explode. " Can be good instructions for a hornsection as well