Intonation Intonation poll

[Neffmusic]

I just said 'correct', not good, better, preferable, suitable, cool or anything else. Correct (-ish) because the tuner said it was.
I stand by my comment that #1 sounds better because it gives a sense of imminent but unrequited arrival at spot-on pitch which is exciting (and grungy and laid-back), rather than simply in-tune. #2 sounds sharp because you heard #1 first.
I just listened to #2 again after many hours of not hearing it, and it actually sounds fine.

I would disagree with the statement "#2 sounds sharp because you heard #1 first" When Pete first posted these clips in the other thread he posted the clip that sounds sharp first then the flat clip second. When first listening to it my thought was that the first clip sounded sharp before I even heard the second clip.

 

[Neffmusic]

As I said, I hear the stereotypical lick: F#-G-C except he's making that one long bent note serve the purpose of the F#-G. Not consciously, of course, but as a player familiar and experienced in this kind of music, he's pulled the note down at the beginning, then pushed it up to pretty much a true G, just before popping up to C to complete the stereotypical lick.

I would point out that blues doesn't really follow Western harmony completely, as evidenced by the fact that most of the time that "I" chord is actually a I7 chord. When I'm playing over a C7, I hear F#s (or Gbs?) all over the place. When I'm playing over a pure C major, not so much.

This is interesting. I just listened to the clips again and I see what you are saying. I don't hear an F# or imagine an F# but I do hear that -30 cents flat G that then moves up to -10 cents before jumping up to the C. The whole G has the affect of a bluesy scoop to it. The second clip that is changed to be in tune loses that bluesy sound and vibe by I guess just being in tune (still sounds sharp to me). It seems more square and sterile.

I always tell students that bending blues notes with tension makes them sound better and more mature to the listener because even if the note has a lot of tension, the bend makes it sound like it is going somewhere so it is more acceptable. A good example of this is when you hear a profession player play the blues scale on a C7 chord and if he plays a F# he will most likely bend it in a blues context. A middle school kid will just play the F# like every other note with no bends and it sounds like a wrong note to the audience.

 

[turf3]

That's because that "G minus" that you bend it to, is a microtonal blue note, not an accurate F#. (And because you're bending it pretty hard, the pitch can become kind of indeterminate.)

I'm walking back the F# assertion and I'm going to stay with the assertion that what Pete made there, is a blue fifth. Further, because Pete's familiar and experienced with African-American music, and so are all of us, the blue fifth sounds GOOD to us in that particular spot. As I said above, I doubt that if you had a Mozart concerto where the solo instrument came in on a sustained G in the key center of C, that it would sound good to bend it flat by 30 cents. I think it's about the stylistic expectations.

In the other intonation thread I posted a link to the Mississippi Mass Choir performing a song - there are "calls" that both the female and male leaders make, that aren't even notatable in common pitch notation, yet they are perfectly suited to the musical context. She does a number of those calls starting at 6:36. He starts at 10:30. Academic analysis does not explain the value and meaning of those expressions.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg

Or if that's too down home for you, listen to this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuWjE7nAB2s


Right at the beginning of his fourth solo chorus, Trane plays "a note". Right at 1:07. What IS that note? It's kind of close to a third. I'll tell you what it is, it's a blue note. Don't think it was an accident. Trane knew how to play the blues. He MEANT to play that note.

 

[Neffmusic]

None of your video examples seem to be working for me..........

 

[Pete Effamy]

That's because that "G minus" that you bend it to, is a microtonal blue note, not an accurate F#. (And because you're bending it pretty hard, the pitch can become kind of indeterminate.)

I'm walking back the F# assertion and I'm going to stay with the assertion that what Pete made there, is a blue fifth. Further, because Pete's familiar and experienced with African-American music, and so are all of us, the blue fifth sounds GOOD to us in that particular spot. As I said above, I doubt that if you had a Mozart concerto where the solo instrument came in on a sustained G in the key center of C, that it would sound good to bend it flat by 30 cents. I think it's about the stylistic expectations.

In the other intonation thread I posted a link to the Mississippi Mass Choir performing a song - there are "calls" that both the female and male leaders make, that aren't even notatable in common pitch notation, yet they are perfectly suited to the musical context. She does a number of those calls starting at 6:36. He starts at 10:30. Academic analysis does not explain the value and meaning of those expressions.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg

Or if that's too down home for you, listen to this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuWjE7nAB2s


Right at the beginning of his fourth solo chorus, Trane plays "a note". Right at 1:07. What IS that note? It's kind of close to a third. I'll tell you what it is, it's a blue note. Don't think it was an accident. Trane knew how to play the blues. He MEANT to play that note.

I’m in!
Yep. Agreed. Definitely. But it has a certain attack and placement in the phrase that totally makes sense. If Pete meant that b5 - I’m calling it that btw because I’m visualising the written score, and a straight (unbent) b5 would probably only be played as such if occurring in a fast Scalic passage: a blue 5th can’t be notated, it’s played blue and microtonal - he’d not be worried about an “out of tune” note.
Coltrane’s phrase is just that, but Pete’s is an opening held note. If he wanted to play the note with a real bluesy feel to it he’d have played it rather differently (more obviously).
Don’t cha think?

 

[Pete Thomas]

again, this is why Pete has questioned it - it starts flat because of the scoop but that’s an effect, a portamento start to the note,

I don't think the note ever gets to G, I didn'tintend a bbend or scoop.

I looked at the tuner again, the G doesn't really hit 0 cents but right at the end of it, it gets close, then he pops up to C. The majority of the duration of that note, it's 30 cents low. Right at the end it goes up,

It may go up right at the very end, but it certainly stays level for a while.

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters too much but is a represenation of the flat version note showing it's pitch in real time

Looks to me like a slight scoop for the first 20%, then level-ish and a slight drop at the end. But I don't know how reliable that is This was done by temporarily turning on Logic flex pitch but without chaning any pitch so just analysing.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I’m in!
Yep. Agreed. Definitely. But it has a certain attack and placement in the phrase that totally makes sense. If Pete meant that b5 - I’m calling it that btw because I’m visualising the written score, and a straight (unbent) b5 would probably only be played as such if occurring in a fast Scalic passage: a blue 5th can’t be notated, it’s played blue and microtonal - he’d not be worried about an “out of tune” note.
Coltrane’s phrase is just that, but Pete’s is an opening held note. If he wanted to play the note with a real bluesy feel to it he’d have played it rather differently (more obviously).
Don’t cha think?

My apologies on behalf of the Cafe and its members for the in depth psychological analysis of his musical concert F# and also his intentions.
In other news Pete has been eating fish n chips recently though he obviously meant to order a take-out curry. Silly boy.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I didn'tintend a bbend or scoop.

But you submit that there is a slight scoop which is what I said - or am I using scoop incorrectly? Is a scoop a longer effect and the short version a lip slur? I thought they were the same sort of thing, used as wanted.

 

[turf3]

None of your video examples seem to be working for me..........

Try clicking on the address, or copy-pasting it into your browser window.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But you submit that there is a slight scoop which is what I said

Indeed a very slight scoop, or maybe a bend up is better terminoly for the avoidance of doubt.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Indeed a very slight scoop, or maybe a bend up is better terminoly for the avoidance of doubt.

Ok cool, but you agree that it happens - a slight bend up to start the note.
Hang on, we’re missing something. From the horses mouth Pete - what were you intending to play here?!

 

[Pete Thomas]

but you agree that it happens - a slight bend up to start the note.

Yes indeed I agree, a lot my notes do that.

From the horses mouth Pete - what were you intending to play here?!

The best solo ever recorded.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Yes indeed I agree, a lot my notes do that.

So what I’m saying is that you intended a long held tone with true pitch? The lip up at the start is what loads of us might do and in my opinion has no bearing on the flatness of the note itself, it’s just the beginning of the note.
Otherwise - why have you mentioned your note being flat - cos if intended it wouldn’t have been mentioned.

 

[Ivan]

Slipping and sliding from note to note like a singer appealed to me on a higher plane

Uh, oh

Colin's gone Zen

Watch for imminent name change from Bear to Grasshopper

 

[Neffmusic]

Ok cool, but you agree that it happens - a slight bend up to start the note.
Hang on, we’re missing something. From the horses mouth Pete - what were you intending to play here?!

So what I’m saying is that you intended a long held tone with true pitch? The lip up at the start is what loads of us might do and in my opinion has no bearing on the flatness of the note itself, it’s just the beginning of the note.
Otherwise - why have you mentioned your note being flat - cos if intended it wouldn’t have been mentioned.

I thought the whole point of this thread is that it doesn't sound flat. Just sounds like a held in tune 5th to me. That's why this thread is so interesting......... The first recording sounded like an in tune 5th and the second like a sharp 5th......... I didn't even hear any scoop in pitch like we are talking about now.........

 

[Pete Effamy]

I thought the whole point of this thread is that it doesn't sound flat. Just sounds like a held in tune 5th to me. That's why this thread is so interesting.........

Yes, but Pete originally enquired if others thought it sounded flat - that he was worried that it was, and indeed found it to be “technically “ against the tuner. He thought he’d be vilified I think - though the opposite is the truth.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I didn't even hear any scoop in pitch like we are talking about now.........

Just checked again - there is a small lip up to the note - like we’d probably all play, rather than a clean on-the-nose start

 

[mizmar]

I've bookmarked this thread for next time a beginner asks "how do I improve my intonation?"

 

[Pete Effamy]

I've bookmarked this thread for next time a beginner asks "how do I improve my intonation?"

Nuts eh..

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've bookmarked this thread for next time a beginner asks "how do I improve my intonation?"

Just play as out of tune as Pete Thomas does (and gets away with)