Intonation Intonate or not?

[Pete Thomas]

I don't think it's acceptable to play out of tune at any level. It's not music if it's out of tune imo.

I'm sure I often play out of tune. When I analyse the notes I often found they area out of tune whether equal , just for any intonation.

But I suppose there could be a debate about what is out of tune. Or in tune.

 

[lydian]

I'm a bit confused, As I play a scale or a tune, should I adjust intonation by changing the shape of my embouchure now?

Alternatively should I keep a fixed embouchure and concentrate on getting reasonable tone and fingering and waiting until later when I can learn to intonate with my larynx?

I have seen both recommended on the Internet for beginners. One person says you can't intonate by embouchire as it ruins your tone and another says you can. One says try to intonate right away another says ignore it for now.

Hmmmm.....

I will askmy teacher but won't see him until next week and I don't want to start getting any bad habits when I practice

All advice will be welcome

If you have the ability to do it now, by all means do it. Absolute beginners usually can't do it. That's why we're advising you don't worry about it YET. Let it come naturally as your skills develop. So I'm advocating that you keep your embouchure fixed for now.

In my experience, embouchure changes are not the primary way to stay in tune. I don't change my embouchure to control intonation except in very extreme cases. It's done by changing what you are calling the larynx, but it's really mostly the shape of the tongue, inside of the mouth and the back of the throat. I don't believe it goes as far down as the larynx.

Ultimately, you will make changes to every single note in real time to stay perfectly in tune. But this is a skill that comes naturally. I've never made a conscious effort to do it. Your body just makes the appropriate corrections based on what you hear without any conscious actions on your part. If you've already developed this far, run with it.

Lastly, I want to make sure you understand how to tune your instrument to a single tuning note. Do NOT lip the pitch up or down to match the tuning note. Always use your normal embouchure and move the mouthpiece. If you can't tell if you're sharp or flat, it's ok to lip up and down in order to answer that question. But then move your mouthpiece to get in tune.

 

[Nick Wyver]

My playing, these days, is either with a piano accompaniment, playing "classical" stuff (actually virtually all 20th and 21st century) or solo with a drummer. I play a lot using soprano sax and the written music is often very hard to play. But playing with a pianist it's easy to tell when my tuning is off. Especially on the squeaky notes. It's certainly not always spot on. I've only been playing sop 50 years so I've got a way to go yet.
The solo +drummer music is more problematic. It's all improvised so most of my brain power is taken up with the notes I'm playing rather than with the tuning of the said notes. And I've got no reference point. At the moment I've been recording all of the duo music and it's been interesting listening to where the tuning goes when I've been in full flow, as it were. It doesn't make me wince too much so I'm relegating it in my head to something that's not hugely important in this situation - unlike the stuff with piano.
Excuse the rambling.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I take it you've never heard a middle school orchestra. It's literally impossible for beginning strings students to play in tune right away. It has to develop over time. Beginning sax students are similar. It takes time to develop the control for playing in tune. You have to learn the rudiments of the instrument before you can make music. If you insist on playing in tune from day one, play the piano, not sax.

It was one of the reasons I wasn't in band at school and also packed in the foundation course in adult ed. Can't be doing with it.
I'm sure we all drift a bit from time and a little bending and vibrato is acceptable but never getting there is grimm.

 

[jbtsax]

When I play 4th line D or A above the staff and I hear sharpness I open my teeth slightly. Maybe there is a slight change in the oral cavity like singing "AHH", but it also changes the firmness of the lower lip against the reed. In studies done by Gary Scavone at McGill University it was found that "pitch bends" that lower the pitch using only the vocal tract without the use of the embouchre are possible on the alto saxophone for note A2 and higher. Pitch bends below this range using the vocal tract are more difficult, although variation in the "timbre" of a given note through changes in the oral cavity and vocal tract are possible throughout the range of the saxophone.

If saxophone players were not allowed to change the embouchure while playing, there would be no such thing as lip or "jaw" vibrato. Keeping the same embouchure from low Bb to high F and not relaxing in the low register or tightening in the high register does not mean that small changes to bring notes in tune and to play with vibrato are not allowed.

 

[turf3]

When I play 4th line D or A above the staff and I hear sharpness I open my teeth slightly. Maybe there is a slight change in the oral cavity like singing "AHH", but it also changes the firmness of the lower lip against the reed. In studies done by Gary Scavone at McGill University it was found that "pitch bends" that lower the pitch using only the vocal tract without the use of the embouchre are possible on the alto saxophone for note A2 and higher. Pitch bends below this range using the vocal tract are more difficult, although variation in the "timbre" of a given note through changes in the oral cavity and vocal tract are possible throughout the range of the saxophone.

If saxophone players were not allowed to change the embouchure while playing, there would be no such thing as lip or "jaw" vibrato. Keeping the same embouchure from low Bb to high F and not relaxing in the low register or tightening in the high register does not mean that small changes to bring notes in tune and to play with vibrato are not allowed.

Like many things that are said by teachers and then parroted out of context for decades, the "embouchure must never vary, ever!" is clearly an out of context view. Obviously if you're a teacher faced with students who drop their jaw to fart out the lower notes and bite till the blood comes to get high notes, you need to train that out of them. Hence the admonition "do not adjust your embouchure". But like all such training modalities, once the bad habit is removed and a good habit replaces it, you have to use some common sense. Just like putting double sided tape on the keys to train out a habit of fingers high in the air. That doesn't mean that 30 years later you should still be putting double sided sticky tape on all your keys.

 

[wooster]

.. students who drop their jaw to fart out the lower notes and bite till the blood comes to get high notes, you need to train that out of them. .

I'm afraid you've just described me. I clench my mouth until it hurts and still I can't get the note in tune easily. I have an ache on my right jaw at the moment which is a bit of a concern, and I assume an indication of wayward technique. I guess in this scenario I should relax my embouchure and stick with the same no matter which note I'm playing and even if some notes seem out of tune.

 

[wooster]

Lastly, I want to make sure you understand how to tune your instrument to a single tuning note. Do NOT lip the pitch up or down to match the tuning note. Always use your normal embouchure and move the mouthpiece. If you can't tell if you're sharp or flat, it's ok to lip up and down in order to answer that question. But then move your mouthpiece to get in tune.

This is an interesting point and is what I have been doing. I've had to push my lip a fair bit to get the sax in tune.

I tried that today using a nice embouchure that suited me. It sounded good, but I couldn't get the sax to tune. It was flat even if I pushed the mouthpiece in until the end was at the end of the cork. Should I push it further so the end of the piece extends past the end of the cork or not? Is this not extreme?

 

[wooster]

Thanks for all the help above folks. I appreciate it.

My takeaway from all of it is that everyone instinctively gets a way of accommodating the embouchure to make fine adjustments, however, it seems I've started off with a badly tuned sax and am having to make massive changes to try and stay in tune with backing tracks which is causing me problems.

If I can get my tuning sorted I might get on better.

 

[lydian]

I'm afraid you've just described me. I clench my mouth until it hurts and still I can't get the note in tune easily. I have an ache on my right jaw at the moment which is a bit of a concern, and I assume an indication of wayward technique. I guess in this scenario I should relax my embouchure and stick with the same no matter which note I'm playing and even if some notes seem out of tune.

I wouldn't go that far. Definitely don't bite to bring the pitch up. But don't ignore bad intonation. At your stage, bad intonation is much more likely due to fundamentals like air support and weak embouchure than any minor tweaks with the vocal tract that you haven't learned yet. So if you hit a bad note for now, blow harder and sustain that air support for the other notes with the goal of making the most pleasant sound possible.

 

[lydian]

This is an interesting point and is what I have been doing. I've had to push my lip a fair bit to get the sax in tune.

I tried that today using a nice embouchure that suited me. It sounded good, but I couldn't get the sax to tune. It was flat even if I pushed the mouthpiece in until the end was at the end of the cork. Should I push it further so the end of the piece extends past the end of the cork or not? Is this not extreme?

Ignore the length of the cork. Play with your normal embouchure (no biting, but not too loose either), then move the mouthpiece where ever it needs to go to make your tuning note in tune (usually F# or G on alto, B or C on tenor).

 

[wooster]

Ignore the length of the cork. Play with your normal embouchure (no biting, but not too loose either), then move the mouthpiece where ever it needs to go to make your tuning note in tune (usually F# or G on alto, B or C on tenor).

Thank you. I was psychologically tied to the idea that I shouldn't go further than the cork end for some reason. I guess I wanted it to look neat with the mp sitting around the halfway mark!

 

[Dr G]

Thank you. I was psychologically tied to the idea that I shouldn't go further than the cork end for some reason. I guess I wanted it to look neat with the mp sitting around the halfway mark!

You can still do that - just apply a longer cork.

The amount of cork showing past the mouthpiece is truly arbitrary - as is the length of the mouthpiece.

 

[GJ77]

I teach all of my students to play with their bottom lip slightly forward from the outset, rather than the clarinet style tighter embouchure with the lip folded right back over the teeth. I find that this encourages them to relax more as biting is less likely to occur, and also promotes a more full tone (not necessarily brighter, just more free and rich).

As a precursor to learning more precise embouchure adjustments in order to intonate, I ask them to put their hands around their neck just below the jawline and to sing an octave leap and feel what the muscles are doing in order to make the larynx adjust. This is usually enough to get them playing the first overtone from a low d without use of the octave key, thereby stressing the point that it’s our embouchure which does the work, and the octave key is simply there to provide a little help.

Having developed this control, I then talk a little about shaping the oral cavity, but only in broad terms (think ahhh in the lower register; ohhh in the middle and eeeee in the upper). As they develop more we use a drone to warm up and play a few long notes and overtones against, using the ear, rather than a tuner to adjust intonation. The important thing to make clear, is that the majority of the work happens away from the lips, at the back of the oral cavity and even the neck muscles.

I’m sure that others will disagree with me, but this method has served me well over many years of teaching.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I’m sure that others will disagree with me,

I'm not disagreeing as I think there are different ways to do things, many of which are not wrong if the result is right.

I tend to only think about the jaw position for tuning, not oral cavity or vowel sounds because I find that difficult to think about and especially to communicate. Wheras if a want a note flatter for example I relax my jaw a bit.

Notwithstanding, I do understand a bit about oral cavity effects on high notes (and mouthpiece exercises) , but not in general playing. I've got through my life so far and probably too old now to change the habit of a lifetime.

So basically it's all down to whatever works (within reason)

 

[jbtsax]

Based upon the statement that even when the mouthpiece is pushed to the end of the cork, the pitch is still flat there is more information required to access the problem.

• What type of saxophone are you playing?
• What is the make and model?
• What brand of mouthpiece do you have?
• What reed strength are you using?
• What note do you tune to?
• What dynamic level do you play at when tuning?

 

[wooster]

Hi. To clarify. I'm playing a YAS280 with 4c mouthpiece. I have a no 2 Rico reed on it. I have tried tuning to a few notes but usually, start with G on the lowest octave.

Today I followed the advice and pushed the mp in past the cork. I had to shove it in quite a bit past it. I achieved the tuning all right but I found that notes were doing weird wobbling things at low C and had a lot of other effects going on at other notes: sounded like a few harmonics or something to me and also quite a bit of squawking. Now, bearing in mind I'm a novice this could just be me having an off day but it seemed a bit of an odd coincidence.

I will try it again tomorrow and see how things go. I have another lesson on Monday so I will ask my teacher then.

 

[mizmar]

I have a YAS280 which came, of course, with a 4C. I really find it extraordinary that it's not pretty well in tune with the MP just comfortably on the cork. Presumably it was ok at your first lesson?

Probably the best thing, till Monday, is to

... not to fret about it for the time being and that I was "biting" and stressing my mouth too much. He advised concentrating on relaxing my embouchure and sticking to getting the sound and fingering right for the time being

 

[wooster]

No, it's never really been any different from what I can tell. Is it possible my embouchure is just very loose? I mean I can make it match a tuner's notes with the mp sitting at a reasonable place on the cork, but I do need to give my mouth a bit of a workout and I had thought from the discussion above that I should start with a relaxed embouchure. Maybe I've taken the defiinition of relaxed up a notch or two 😉 But, yes, I've only to wait until Monday to ask now, so even with my impatient nature, I will be able to bide my time until then

 

[lydian]

Even a so-called relaxed embouchure still has significant pressure which is required for a good tone, good intonation and good control. There are lots of things that can make you play flat in addition to the tightness of your embouchure. It's really impossible for us to diagnose. You need your teacher to diagnose and fix it.

Since you're impatient, just continue to experiment. You need to learn what effects different embouchures, tongue shapes, mouth shapes, air pressure, air direction, etc. have on your tone and intonation anyway. I think the most useful exercise would be to listen to a recording of someone whose sound you want to emulate, and simply try to emulate it, over and over and over again, along with the recording(s). That's how I learned to produce a beautiful tone. My first teacher was a clarinet player and could not help me much in that department except for teaching me the fundamentals. I ultimately had to use my ears and lots of experimentation.