Intonation Intonate or not?

[wooster]

I'm a bit confused, As I play a scale or a tune, should I adjust intonation by changing the shape of my embouchure now?

Alternatively should I keep a fixed embouchure and concentrate on getting reasonable tone and fingering and waiting until later when I can learn to intonate with my larynx?

I have seen both recommended on the Internet for beginners. One person says you can't intonate by embouchire as it ruins your tone and another says you can. One says try to intonate right away another says ignore it for now.

Hmmmm.....

I will askmy teacher but won't see him until next week and I don't want to start getting any bad habits when I practice

All advice will be welcome

 

[Wade Cornell]

As you've already found out the sax is an imperfect instrument. How imperfect depends on the quality of the horn and the voicing. Lower voiced instruments (tenor, baritone,...or lower) have theoretically less variation. The higher voices like soprano or sopranino are much more difficult to play in tune. The alto is in the middle. What we strive for is trying to play evenly thought the range of the horn with our notes reasonably in tune. IMHO there is no one way to do this and whatever works for each individual is fair. Embouchure tightening/loosening is sort of easy if you use a lower lip tucked well over your bottom teeth. This gives you more control over your tone and mellows it out. Many today are unfortunately taught a "lower lip out" style of playing which can go wildly wrong for beginners with attendant horrible tone. Since the embouchure isn't developed it enourages more biting, which isn't what you want. This may be why some teach not using embouchure at all.

Starting with the Lip over your bottom teeth, then moving to lip further out as tone and confidence is gained gives positive feedback and keeps partners and neighbors from screaming at you. The lip out eventually brightens the tone (slightly) but in a beginner is just obnoxious. Not gaining good tone and control in a reasonable amount of time just reinforces frustration and inability to control what can otherwise be easy.

Poor quality instruments can require a lot of correction. This can later cause trouble as those corrections can become automatic. As an example I had an (older) Yanagisawa sopranino that required a lot of embouchure pressure to correct notes above B3 being flat. When I changed to another sopranino I was continually playing those notes sharp. It took me months to get out of that habit!

Follow what your teacher recommends, unless it's starting out with a "lip out" embouchure. I'd honestly opt for a new teacher.

 

[jbtsax]

I taught beginning band for many years. As soon as students developed the tone production skills to sustain and control the pitches of notes we worked on intonation. I taught them about "matching pitch" and what it sounds like when two instruments are in tune with each other and how it sounds when they are out of tune. We did exercises raising and lowering the pitch and then matching the pitch of an amplified tuner. Sixth grade students can play in tune!

Different instruments use different techniques to make small adjustments to the pitch to sound in tune. The saxophone "lips up" or "lips down" by making small changes in the tightness of the embouchure. The "shape" does not change, just how firmly the bottom lip presses against the reed. Dynamic changes can also affect the pitch as does taking more or less mouthpiece in the mouth.

I have played the saxophone over 60 years and taught band 32 years and I have never heard the expression "intone" until recently on internet discussion forums. I don't know where it started but a google search for the definition does not match the way it is used relative to tuning one's instrument. That said, my teacher in college used the term "humor the pitch" meaning to adjust the note till it sounds in tune or matches another player. I can't find that with a google search either, however that term was used in the text "Tuning the School Band and Orchestra" by Ralph R. Pottle which is a great resource for teachers that is unfortunately now out of print.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I don’t think there is any reason to not adjust your embouchure. But I can’t vouch for whether or not your teacher but consider that a bad habit.

 

[Guenne]

Hello!
Playing the saxophone you have to adjust your embouchure.

There are of course differences in playing Classical and Jazz, as in classical I think you are looking for a perfectly balanced (meaning equal) tone in all registers. In Jazz you might want to look for more timbre changes.
I don't think it is a good idea for a teacher to tell a student to intonate by tightening or loosening the embouchure. In my playing it probably happens, but I do not tighten my embouchure in the high register or loosen it in the low. It depends on what I'm doing inside my mouth, how I'd like to sound. And the changes (if they happen) are very minute - and I don't care about them.

I think it is more important to have the tools to make the reed vibrate immediately without fighting the horn. Control over the airstream, voicing, air support to get the resonance in the different registers.

One of the reasons IMHO why there's the idea of "tuning" into the horn with a certain pitch on the MPC alone is, that there are less necessary changes in embouchure if matching these pitches (A on Alto, G on Tenor, D on Bari).

Cheers, Guenne

 

[mizmar]

I will ask my teacher but won't see him until next week and I don't want to start getting any bad habits when I practice

What did your teacher say last time?

IMHO, as a beginner/intermediate, I think the place to start is like what jbtsax said. Play a note on your piano, sing the note then try to play it with a solid, relaxed feel. I didn't sing enough. I can't sing anyway, so didn't but should have.

Anyway, you won't develop bad habits in a week. Most of us take years to do that...
... But you are allowed to experiment

 

[Tenor Viol]

(An aside - I suspect 'intonate' is being borrowed from the world of guitars and intonation, which is about getting the instrument to be correctly in tune when fretted, which involves adjusting the string length.)

 

[wooster]

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate your time.

I really just meant to play in tune. If I'm playing along with a backing track, it doesn't sound all that great in terms of pitch. When I was playing with my teacher last time, he said not to fret about it for the time being and that I was "biting" and stressing my mouth too much. He advised concentrating on relaxing my embouchure and sticking to getting the sound and fingering right for the time being.

Anyway, yesterday I was online and one chap seemed to suggest that it wasn't the shape of the mouth that changed the tuning of the note but the larynx. I then started to wonder if I had been doing this wrong and that I should maintain a steady embouchure and not try to use it to change pitch. When, I then trawled around online I found a whole lot of what seemed to me to be contradictory information about whether it was the position of the lips in the embouchure that changed pitch or the throat

Now, I'm not 100% sure where I heard the original comment and I might have misunderstood what the guy was saying but I started to wonder if I should move my bottom lip or not

 

[Pete Thomas]

Anyway, yesterday I was online and one chap seemed to suggest that it wasn't the shape of the mouth that changed the tuning of the note but the larynx.

This only really works on high notes IMO.

 

[mizmar]

When, I then trawled around online I found a whole lot of what seemed to me to be contradictory information ideas

Your teacher sounds like they know what they're doing

 

[wooster]

Your teacher sounds like they know what they're doing

I have to say my teacher does seem to me to be pretty good. I've only had one proper lesson from him but even the small stuff he's helped me with like putting the reed on properly and the biting thing has been very helpful.

It's good to have someone to watch and listen to you and give you corrections.

I don't envy him, though 😀 🙂

 

[wooster]

This only really works on high notes IMO.

Ty. I haven't got that high yet. I can't do much on the higher ones that I can reach and I end up grimly clenching the mouthpiece with the note sounding horrible.

I have a feeling I might be trying to run before I can walk

 

[spike]

Listen to your teacher, take his advice, he's the one who can see and hear what you're doing.
Be patient, it takes a long time to develop a good embouchure and control, just relax, don't be in such a hurry.
Stay away from the online Guru's, they'll confuse you and do yer head in.
Patience, Practice, Percy Vearance.

 

[turf3]

You should always try to play in tune. However, the path to reliably playing in tune is to have a strong well developed embouchure and a strong well developed airstream.

Any decent quality saxophone made since the 1920s and in good repair, played with a mouthpiece of moderate design and reeds of good quality and moderate stiffness, will play well in tune with only subtle embouchure and voicing adjustments. Provided, that is, that you supply the strong well developed embouchure and the strong well developed airstream. If you find yourself having to pinch and drop and roll and yaw all over the place either with lips or mouth shape to keep each note in tune, that means you haven't developed the strong well developed embouchure and the strong well developed airstream.

Personally I'd work on tone building and airstream building, while using your ears (not staring at a tuner) to maintain reasonable pitch, and I'd make that my first priority even over learning the fingerings. I assure you, a wrong note played at the exact right time with a strong compelling tone (this doesn't necessarily mean loud), will sound a hell of a lot better than the right note played at the wrong time with a weak wimpy sound (this doesn't necessarily mean soft).

 

[lydian]

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate your time.

I really just meant to play in tune. If I'm playing along with a backing track, it doesn't sound all that great in terms of pitch. When I was playing with my teacher last time, he said not to fret about it for the time being and that I was "biting" and stressing my mouth too much. He advised concentrating on relaxing my embouchure and sticking to getting the sound and fingering right for the time being.

Anyway, yesterday I was online and one chap seemed to suggest that it wasn't the shape of the mouth that changed the tuning of the note but the larynx. I then started to wonder if I had been doing this wrong and that I should maintain a steady embouchure and not try to use it to change pitch. When, I then trawled around online I found a whole lot of what seemed to me to be contradictory information about whether it was the position of the lips in the embouchure that changed pitch or the throat

Now, I'm not 100% sure where I heard the original comment and I might have misunderstood what the guy was saying but I started to wonder if I should move my bottom lip or not

As others have said, playing in tune should come naturally and without thinking once you've developed your embouchure and control. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

They larynx thing sounds like nonsense. The only time my larynx is used when play sax is for effects like growling, not timbre or intonation. Intonation comes mostly from the tongue and throat, and a little from the lips and jaw. Have you ever heard a blues harmonica player bend notes? They don't use the jaw or lip pressure or embouchure changes. All the bending is done by shaping the inside of the mouth. That's not to say you can't bend a little by biting or loosening, but that usually doesn't get you very far. Just use your ears and experiment to find what works for you.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I don't think it's acceptable to play out of tune at any level. It's not music if it's out of tune imo.
The term embouchure covers many things. As far as the lips go it isn't neccessary to tighten or relax to fascilitate pitch correction.
Rather enlarge and reduce the whole oral cavity, much like when whistling.

Try playing tunes on just the mouthpiece.

For high notes don't bite and don't tighten the embouchure. Open the throat and voice them as you would a low note. For high think low.

It may take quite some time before acquiring the chops to play well and in tune.
Recording yourself playing with backing tracks will help to inform you of your progress.
No rush. Take your time. Let it come to you.

 

[Jimmymack]

Your embouchure should be maintained across the normal range of the horn, that's where you start, fixing the tuning involves the larynx and other exotic parts of your oral cavity which you will learn to feel. Don't try to adjust the tuning with your embouchure that way disaster lies, hear the note and coax it out, it's easier than you think.

 

[Dr G]

I'm a bit confused, As I play a scale or a tune, should I adjust intonation by changing the shape of my embouchure now?

Alternatively should I keep a fixed embouchure and concentrate on getting reasonable tone and fingering and waiting until later when I can learn to intonate with my larynx?

I have seen both recommended on the Internet for beginners. One person says you can't intonate by embouchire as it ruins your tone and another says you can. One says try to intonate right away another says ignore it for now.

Hmmmm.....

I will askmy teacher but won't see him until next week and I don't want to start getting any bad habits when I practice

All advice will be welcome

Practice what he told you, and look forward to asking your questions next week.

As an instructor, I can tell you that among the worst things you can do is go into a lesson and say “I’m doing it this way because I read it on the internet.”. To which your instructor responds “I guess you don’t need to see me anymore.”

Learn your assigned scales and tunes, and always listen to your tone and intonation. Awareness is the first step toward improvement.

 

[saxstorm]

I'm a bit confused, As I play a scale or a tune, should I adjust intonation by changing the shape of my embouchure now?

Alternatively should I keep a fixed embouchure and concentrate on getting reasonable tone and fingering and waiting until later when I can learn to intonate with my larynx?

I have seen both recommended on the Internet for beginners. One person says you can't intonate by embouchire as it ruins your tone and another says you can. One says try to intonate right away another says ignore it for now.

Hmmmm.....

I will askmy teacher but won't see him until next week and I don't want to start getting any bad habits when I practice

All advice will be welcome

Don’t worry too much! All kinds of things can affect tuning, too-soft reeds, faulty embouchure, etc. Your teacher should make sure you are on the right track to start with, later you can download a tuning app for your phone. The alto is not that easy to play in tune - specifically the bottom Bb is always sharp for some reason, I use a bell ring. The top of the low register tends to be a bit flat. Middle D is always sharp. The top of the high register is wild!

 

[lydian]

I don't think it's acceptable to play out of tune at any level. It's not music if it's out of tune imo.

I take it you've never heard a middle school orchestra. It's literally impossible for beginning strings students to play in tune right away. It has to develop over time. Beginning sax students are similar. It takes time to develop the control for playing in tune. You have to learn the rudiments of the instrument before you can make music. If you insist on playing in tune from day one, play the piano, not sax.