Theory & Impro Improvising and all that jazz

[turf3]

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So an interesting story about the 12BB.
In a lesson early last year, I did a really good improvisation, during my practice session on a song we had been working on (which I now know to be based on the blues scale, which at the time I had no idea about. I decided to write it down to play for my teacher.

We played through the original piece plus my written "reprise". It sounded really good - the teacher looked at me astonished and said "bloody hell! you've written a 12 bar blues". And I said "what's that?" (because at the time I genuinely did not know that the piece I had written was an actual "thing")

Which goes to show that you can just follow your ear, without necessarily knowing the theory behind it.

Well, you've been hearing rock and roll all your life; a very large fraction of rock and roll is 12 bar blues.

 

[Milo B]

At 60, I am at the beginning of my musical journey and don't feel I have time to mess around.

We're in the same neighborhood, age-wise, and I've felt the same sentiment at every age. But now, I think this feeling itself, of not having time to mess around, of needing to be efficient and make progress and all that, has been one of the chief impediments to my making more progress with learning the jazz language. It leads to looking for methods and shortcuts, to emphasizing discipline and effort over enthusiasm and fun.

So now, I'm in the progress of trying to re-program my approach and to focus less on progress and more on luxuriating in the sound. Hanging out with the records and playing along with them, rather than backing tracks or study guides, is a big part of this.

I'm a lot more eager to practice now and don't think in terms of how much time I'm spending or how fast I'm improving, but rather, on "what's that next little bit, what's happening there?" No one else cares about my rate of progress, and now, at long last, I don't either (most days).

 

[Milo B]

Well, having just spent some time hanging out with a backing track and really enjoying it, I want to amend my response above (since I can't see a way to edit it).

After years of study, I've never figured out the right mix of practice subject matter, but I've at least figured out that I was trying to scoot along too quickly with measurable progress and spending too little time absorbing whatever tune or solo I was trying to learn. Now that I'm hanging out longer with one tune at a time, it's more fun, more mysteries are being revealed, and the rhythms and melodic ideas seem to be rubbing off more on my playing. Hope that makes sense.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Take the chord structure of a favorite tune, AABA will work, and write a new melody, based on those changes.
Not an improv on the original melody.
Tempo or time sig, is of your choosing.
Do this without your horn.
When completed, play it, record it, and make changes to your melody, as though you will be sending it out for copyright or others to enjoy playing.
Have fun. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

 

[Mix O Lydian]

Well, you've been hearing rock and roll all your life; a very large fraction of rock and roll is 12 bar blues.

Exactly, my point was that I did not understand why the teacher seemed so surprised, since we all hear this music on a daily basis.

 

[Dr G]

That's how I feel. When I see stuff like that my mind freezes WT??
I 'get' the concept of a 12BB but when I try and think what to play over the chords I get lost.
When I let my ears direct me it kind of works. Perhaps daily scale and arpeggio practice has helped at a subconscious level?

Your daily scales and arpeggios are part of a developing vocabulary. You are building a sense of interval sense too. Pretty soon you will hear a note and be able to hit it with ever-increasing accuracy. Soon, if not already, you will hear/sing phrases in your head and play them on your horn.

 

[cappers]

@Dr G I am continually amazed at how intervals and chord tones are sinking in without much conscious input. I've been playing intervals on the keyboard, 'singing' them and then playing them on the sax to hear their 'feel' and the distances between them. Playing scales up in 3rds and down in 2nds has also helped overall familiarity.

Today I tried to play a simple boogie-woogie 12 bar blues. After playing a riff for first 4 bars in I, the IV and V notes in the following bars seemed to fall into place without me thinking - I could hear in my head what would go next and my fingers pressed the correct keys at the right time as if I wasn't there.
What a journey......

 

[Digger2054]

I'm very early on in trying to improvise, and it's painfully slow for me. Nothing overly creative, or exciting coming.

But what I have gleaned from my teacher is to just mess around with it. Like Turf3 said, what's to fear if you're just playing to yourself, and confidence will build.

A bit of guidance on what should sound good, or 'work', then go mess about and find what you like, and why you like it.

As Cappers said, intervals, chord tones, and then how to spice them up with approaches, or enclosures. My teacher has demonstrated voice leading between two chords tones, then gone onto to expand that with the multitude of ways in which you can navigate your way around & between those two notes. Frustratingly he makes it look easy.

I've posted a similar post a while back, as after making progress through work books, suddenly improvisation was like hitting a brick wall. Perhaps it's because there is no written music, there's nothing to gauge whether it's right or wrong, or the compare it against.

You're certainly not alone in feeling a bit despondent.

 

[Wade Cornell]

I'm very early on in trying to improvise, and it's painfully slow for me. Nothing overly creative, or exciting coming.

But what I have gleaned from my teacher is to just mess around with it. Like Turf3 said, what's to fear if you're just playing to yourself, and confidence will build.

A bit of guidance on what should sound good, or 'work', then go mess about and find what you like, and why you like it.

As Cappers said, intervals, chord tones, and then how to spice them up with approaches, or enclosures. My teacher has demonstrated voice leading between two chords tones, then gone onto to expand that with the multitude of ways in which you can navigate your way around & between those two notes. Frustratingly he makes it look easy.

I've posted a similar post a while back, as after making progress through work books, suddenly improvisation was like hitting a brick wall. Perhaps it's because there is no written music, there's nothing to gauge whether it's right or wrong, or the compare it against.

You're certainly not alone in feeling a bit despondent.

There are two components to creative improvisation. The first is to hear a line. Try to hum/sing something that you think fits with whatever the tune is. Initially this can be just copying the melody, then doing simple variations. Leave the horn out of it initially as that's just going to frustrate you. You can also try to just sing "stabs" that work with the rhythm. Clapping and other ways of feeling the rhythm in our body (dancing?) can also help. Rhythm is "felt" in the body and needs to be incorporated. This can be a separate exercise until you feel comfortable with incorporating it so that both the sung line is also rhythmically working.

Exercises that are "concepts" like the ones you state (intervals, chord tones, and then how to spice them up with approaches, or enclosures), are all more than OK IF you can hear them in your mind first. Playing without knowing or hearing what you play is (IMHO) not a great idea and leads to being a "cut and paste player".

The second part is the hard part: syncing what you want to hear to your fingers on the horn. This takes a lot of time and practice.

Just get your ears/brain working first. If you can't hear anything to play that's a problem. Copying (initially) gives you some musical reference.

 

[Digger2054]

I shared my attempt at St. James Infirmary with my teacher, and got to some great pointers.

Mostly step away from the Root!

I agree with @Wade Cornell, you need to 'hear' it.

My teacher demonstrated using the 4th & 3rd, and could literally play an infinite line with those two notes.

For me it's a case of, mess around, get feedback, try and incorporate what we discussed, with some understanding of why it works, over time building an ear for it and incorporating into other pieces - I may also be talking codswallop too 🤣

 

[PiccoloPirate]

If you have a keyboard/piano, touch the middle C key, and sing the Octave above.
Repeat, until you get it right.
Then do the same with 5th, the major 3rd, and all intervals.
Hopefully you get to the point, where you can hear intervals in you mind.
It's important to work within this structure, until it is set in your mind, when you hear any note you touch, or blow.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

"My teacher demonstrated using the 4th & 3rd, and could literally play an infinite line with those two notes."

And add some rhythm. 💃🕺
The tonic and two more, good place to start improv.
Same with the chord tones in a tune.

 

[Wade Cornell]

If you have a keyboard/piano, touch the middle C key, and sing the Octave above.
Repeat, until you get it right.
Then do the same with 5th, the major 3rd, and all intervals.
Hopefully you get to the point, where you can hear intervals in you mind.
It's important to work within this structure, until it is set in your mind, when you hear any note you touch, or blow.

This is a good exercise which gives a visual reference as well as the sound. You can see the relationship on a piano. However one needs to be going beyond understanding those relationships, otherwise you wind up "translating" in order to improvise.

Most people can sing (not necessarily in tune) a song that they know, or can at least hear how it goes in their head. For instance you don't need to know that "Mary Had A Little Lamb" starts on the third (of whatever key you start), then moves whole tones down to the tonic, back up, down one, back up, then jumps to the fifth. You just sing it because you can hear it in your head. You body is an instrument that's capable of reproducing what you hear. How well you do this depends on the individual (talent and/or experience).

The ear player is doing the same thing. There is no "translation". The instrument is their voice. It's not a difficult concept to understand, however it takes a lot of practice to make an instrument your voice.

Most teaching works by analysis and using constructs to interpret the auditory and make it visual. That's the world of written music and theory. It's academic and works... up to a point, but does not give a player the ability to play what they can hear in their heads. Likewise academic methods that try to give training for improvisation do not attempt to make that connection and instead use reading a the chord structure to develop riffs, arpeggios, and memorized lines that are played in a "cut and paste" manner. One can become very proficient at this and play at speed, but it's not creative improvisation. It generally lacks melody, feeling, and usually just says the player is well practiced yet has little/nothing to say, just a flurry of notes that fit the key structure.

Should one learn theory and to read music? Yes, of course! Should one also learn to play by ear? Yes, if your goal is to become a creative improvisor. Some people who play for many years can eventually make the connection and play creatively, but not all. It's like "you are what you eat". You also wind up playing what you've practiced.

The Suzuki school of music that generally works with very young children and has them start to play violin by just copying what they hear. Suzuki postulated that music is an auditory language the same as speech. These children become proficient at playing by ear long before they are taught to read music. It is an extremely successful method that is giving the world it's best Classical musicians who are capable of playing music that delivers much more than "the correct notes".

Here are some interesting videos that can help:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkntChAHKTk

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io65i9bnue0

 

[Mix O Lydian]

The ear player is doing the same thing. There is no "translation". The instrument is their voice. It's not a difficult concept to understand, however it takes a lot of practice to make an instrument your voice.

Agreed. And both the videos you posted were very useful, thank you.

Most teaching works by analysis and using constructs to interpret the auditory and make it visual. That's the world of written music and theory. It's academic and works... up to a point, but does not give a player the ability to play what they can hear in their heads. Likewise academic methods that try to give training for improvisation do not attempt to make that connection and instead use reading a the chord structure to develop riffs, arpeggios, and memorized lines that are played in a "cut and paste" manner.

My intellectual understanding of music theory and functional harmony grows daily.
But there’s another part of my brain — the one that’s been hearing, interpreting, and creating music for 60 years — that already knows how to make and respond to sound through my voice.

That intuitive part isn’t always in sync with my newer, more analytical understanding of theory… or with my new way of producing sound: the saxophone.

I haven’t yet fully integrated my voice and my sax. And no amount of formal, “cut and paste” improvisation training will help me do that — especially since I didn’t start this journey at this age to sound like [insert famous musician here], or like a technically proficient but vanilla version of myself!

So, as we head into a new practice week (music gatekeepers, please look away now )

I’m going to stop trying to learn improvisation using the “cut and paste” method. It’s just not for me. There — I’ve said it!

We all learn differently. Some prefer the academic, structured approach. Others learn more relationally or intuitively. One can inform the other — neither is wrong. As @Wade Cornell Cornell says, it all depends on your goal.

From now on, I’m focusing on developing my ear, working on patterns and scales, playing along with sheet music, and — most importantly — bringing the fun and joy back to my practice.

I’ll let theory inform my intuition, not replace it

 

[cappers]

And no amount of formal, “cut and paste” improvisation training will help me do that — especially since I didn’t start this journey at this age to sound like [insert famous musician here], or like a technically proficient but vanilla version of myself!

From now on, I’m focusing on developing my ear, working on patterns and scales, playing along with sheet music, and — most importantly — bringing the fun and joy back to my practice.

I’ll let theory inform my intuition, not replace it

That sums up my feelings at the moment, particularly not wanting to emulate a particular player, just be me. Not aiming to be a technical wizard or fast player bebop player. Just want to be able to play tunes I enjoy for my amusement and play with others for the fun of it. My playing by the dots improves all the time but I really want to be able to play without them too.

I'm beginning to understand the theory but as as far as improv goes I am trying to learn to play by ear and play intuitively. Doing a lot of ear training on chords and intervals which has helped 'internalise' their sounds. Also as in the videos above, 'singing' it before playing it. If I think about scales, chords or phrases whilst playing I get lost.

I have a long way to go but I am enjoying the journey so it doesn't matter how fast I'm developing. At least you have 60 years of music experience behind you.

Good luck, keep on truckin'

 

[Mix O Lydian]

I have a long way to go but I am enjoying the journey so it doesn't matter how fast I'm developing. At least you have 60 years of music experience behind you.

Good luck, keep on truckin'

That's what it's all about. Good luck with your journey as well

(And just to clarify the 60 years experience is just through listening to and hearing and music every day since I was born, as a regular person, only about 3 years of that involves starting to learn music theory and playing).

 

[cappers]

That's what it's all about. Good luck with your journey as well

(And just to clarify the 60 years experience is just through listening to and hearing and music every day since I was born, as a regular person, only about 3 years of that involves starting to learn music theory and playing).

We are in the same boat then. Lifelong music listening and appreciation but never had the time or commitment to learn an instrument. I thought there are players and listeners, I being the latter who wished he could play. Now I have retired a whole new world has opened up and I'm finally doing (kind of!) what I've always wanted and enjoying every moment.

 

[mizmar]

From now on, I’m focusing on developing my ear, working on patterns and scales, playing along with sheet music, and — most importantly — bringing the fun and joy back to my practice.

So, here's a "project" that's just popped into my practice schedule.
An arrangement of Indiana has just appeared in one of your online schools. I'm gonna:
- learn the beginner arrangement by ear (I use a speed changer app, with looping)
- focus scales and pattern exercises on the key and chords used.
- learn the Intermediate arrangement from the page, first with metronome (slow at first, speeding up)
- play it with iReal pro (slow, speeding up)
- play it + noodling -> improv with iReal
- look through it with a view to "theory"
- rinse and repeat.
+ Listen to recordings, picking up ideas etc.
Join me.

 

[Mix O Lydian]

So, here's a "project" that's just popped into my practice schedule.
An arrangement of Indiana has just appeared in one of your online schools. I'm gonna:
- learn the beginner arrangement by ear (I use a speed changer app, with looping)
- focus scales and pattern exercises on the key and chords used.
- learn the Intermediate arrangement from the page, first with metronome (slow at first, speeding up)
- play it with iReal pro (slow, speeding up)
- play it + noodling -> improv with iReal
- look through it with a view to "theory"
- rinse and repeat.
+ Listen to recordings, picking up ideas etc.
Join me.

Sounds good. I can't find that tutorial on Sax School Online (McGill) or Online Sax Academy (Paul Riley)? I did search, which section is it under?

 

[mizmar]

Sounds good. I can't find that tutorial on Sax School Online (McGill) or Online Sax Academy (Paul Riley)? I did search, which section is it under?

YouTube - with the arrangements on the site, under the YouTube tab

View: https://youtu.be/SfNe1inUi7E