Playing the saxophone Improvised solos and “telling a story”

[LostCircuits]

The more I ponder this, the more ridiculous the word “story” becomes.

It’s light and shade, interest; as someone said early on - use of good composition tools: build, sequences, nuance, dynamics….. etc

“to be taken on a journey “

It’s all literary descriptions, not musical.

If it’s a story - what’s the story? (No one will get the same story - and you can be fairly certain that the player isn’t thinking of a story -

C7… “off the bloke went down the pub…”

I don't understand the "ridiculous" connotation. The way you put it, you might as well say for a musician any literary expression is ridiculous. Is that what you meant?

 

[Pete Effamy]

I don't understand the "ridiculous" connotation. The way you put it, you might as well say for a musician any literary expression is ridiculous. Is that what you meant?

But music isn’t literary, words are.

 

[LostCircuits]

something went wrong

 

[LostCircuits]

But music isn’t literary, words are.

Oliver Sacks would disagree

 

[Pete Effamy]

Oliver Sacks would disagree

So, does Prelude a l’apres midi correctly conjure images of a newly born Faun frolicking to all that hear it?

 

[rhysonsax]

"To be taken on a journey" - presumably emotional rather than literal. So that description isn't enough.

And do all listeners sense the same emotions and does the soloist actually intend particular emotions, or just broad categories like calm, tension, excitement (or when I'm soloing, boredom) ?

Rhys

 

[mizmar]

So, does Prelude a l’apres midi correctly conjure images of a newly born Faun frolicking to all that hear it?

Certainly, to anyone who's heard of Rudolf Nureyev

 

[Pete Effamy]

Let’s take Charlie Parker’s famous solo on A Night In Tunisia from the 1953 album Live at Massey Hall.

Very well known. So someone must be able to tell me the story…

 

[Pete Effamy]

Certainly, to anyone who's heard of Rudolf Nureyev

Without prior knowledge? Maybe Cyd Charisse. Or A dancing spider, or a flautist sat in an orchestra playing a piece by Debussy.

 

[mizmar]

Without prior knowledge? Maybe Cyd Charisse. Or A dancing spider, or a flautist sat in an orchestra playing a piece by Debussy.

Ok. But what does "prior knowledge" mean?
It was written for an audience with a background, in a culture. Sure, it wasn't originally a ballet - that's today's audience. But it was meant to be impressionistic. About mood, using timber, weird chords etc. Not literal images. The audience knew that, then. Perform it to an (probably imaginary) audience with no experience in the "classical" Western tradition and, maybe, it's just noise.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Ok. But what does "prior knowledge" mean?
It was written for an audience with a background, in a culture. Sure, it wasn't originally a ballet - that's today's audience. But it was meant to be impressionistic. About mood, using timber, weird chords etc. Not literal images. The audience knew that.

Yep. So not a story. We’re back to Programme music and whether music can actually tell a story like words in a book or whether it merely provides a wonderful collage of sound so enhancing any story. Like film music. Ballet and Opera before the moving picture.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So, does Prelude a l’apres midi correctly conjure images of a newly born Faun frolicking to all that hear it?

This actually a fascinating topic for me (now that we've moved on from improvised solos but that's OK)

This is where the title suggests something that the (otherwise abstract) music might convey. Very often the music itself could invoke many different images for different people, but as soon as the title is there, an image becomes embedded.

 

[mizmar]

We’re back to Programme music and whether music can actually tell a story like words in a book

"We"' aren't. Well, I'm not. Not fully sematic words; as I suggested above.

And the back-story of the Prelude a l’apres is exactly about impressionism. Not a great counter example.

 

[LostCircuits]

Let’s take Charlie Parker’s famous solo on A Night In Tunisia from the 1953 album Live at Massey Hall.

Very well known. So someone must be able to tell me the story…

It's been told many times, you just need to read it again:

One Thousand and One Nights - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or maybe just watch Second Hand Lions over:

Secondhand Lions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pete Effamy]

Music is supportive to storytelling and helps imagination.

To suggest that music can achieve the same ideas / imaginations without being told of this objective is folly.

What about the movie composer technique of making a horror scene more sinister by using a happy nursery rhyme?

 

[Pete Effamy]

It's been told many times, you just need to read it again:

One Thousand and One Nights - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or maybe just watch Second Hand Lions over:

Secondhand Lions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ah yes, from all Parker’s bebop we get Scheherazade. Should have realised as it sounds exactly the same as Scheherazade by both Ravel and Rimsky Korsakov.

 

[Pete Effamy]

"We"' aren't. Well, I'm not. Not fully sematic words; as I suggested above.

And the back-story of the Prelude a l’apres is exactly about impressionism. Not a great counter example.

Yes it is. The debate is whether Impressionism in music actually works.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Let’s take Charlie Parker’s famous solo on A Night In Tunisia from the 1953 album Live at Massey Hall.

Very well known. So someone must be able to tell me the story…

It's been told many times, you just need to read it again:

Someone (maybe me) is going to get into trouble here for saying they don't find that solo tells a story. Unlike (for me for example) Sonny Rollins St. Thomas. This is one of my favourite solos of all time.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Someone (maybe me) is going to get into trouble here for saying they don't find that solo tells a story. Unlike (for me for example) Sonny Rollins St. Thomas. This is one of my favourite solos of all time.

What’s the story? I’ll have a listen and we can compare notes.

Parker’s solo is appropriate to the music considering its genre and time. As was the solo from Diz.

 

[mizmar]

Yes it is. The debate is whether Impressionism in music actually works.

Then it's not about whether you actually visualize an actual faun.