Playing the saxophone Improvisation - Does it suddenly 'click'?

[skeller047]

I think that the problem is that people tend to think that the vertical chordal approach is theoretical and the linear, melodic approach isn’t - and so no study is done and they “fly blind”.

The linear approach still needs to be informed, and many accomplished players cite the importance of transcription.

I don’t think there is a formal theory of melody for Western music - I could be wrong, but if there is, it’s not very well known. Not saying there isn’t some discussion or writing about it, but not a formal theory. Indian music has a strong theory of melody in the definition of ragas, what they mean, when they are used, etc., but Western music seems to have no such detailed categorization.

Likewise, there isn’t a formal theory of Western rhythm that I know of. I know Afro-Cuban practitioners have names for particular rhythms, with pretty detailed parts for different instruments (merengue, cumbia, guaracha, bolero, samba, etc.), along with the rhythmic base of the clave, and we have common names for rhythmic styles in jazz (swing, bossa nova, two beat, etc.), but an all-encompassing theory of rhythmic figures, such as we have for Western harmony, is not there.

Melody and rhythm seem to be the primary carriers for things that we lump into the category of “style”, so listening to these aspects should be at least as important than harmony - yet harmony gets the most attention in academia.

All the more reason to do focused listening, transcribing, playing along with tunes you like, these types of things - you have to absorb these important stylistic elements by immersion and osmosis. We don’t seem to have a formal approach to these aspects of music like we do with harmony. Too bad, really. But being aware of this lack may help us perennial students pay attention to them more closely.

 

[Pete Effamy]

All the more reason to do focused listening, transcribing, playing along with tunes you like, these types of things - you have to absorb these important stylistic elements by immersion and osmosis. We don’t seem to have a formal approach to these aspects of music like we do with harmony.

And we have to take that learning by whatever means is available to us. In 1920s N’Orleans, you probably knew where the top players lived and might have been able to hang with them. In fact, that would have been the only real option then, it won’t have been a sheet of manuscript and a pen.

These days, we have recordings and videos of pretty much everyone you’ve heard of, and it may be our only option, unless you live above Ronnie Scott’s or The Baked Potato.

 

[Hankenstine]

Sometimes just playing what you feel works well.

It reminds me of this famous quote:

"...Some time ago, the tenor saxophonist Frank Foster was playing a street concert from the Jazzmobile in Harlem. He called for a blues in B-flat. A young tenor player began to play "out" from the first chorus, playing sounds that had no relationship to the harmonic progression or rhythmic setting.

Foster stopped him. "What are you doing?"

"Just playing what I feel."

"Well, feel something in B-flat, motherf***er."

 

[mizmar]

Likewise, there isn’t a formal theory of Western rhythm

Just as an aside, I got curious about this in this thread

Playing the saxophone - Rhythmic patterns?

So, for various reasons I started drifting down a rabbit hole, I don't really have the language to ask about... So, in many traditions, music seems to be underpinned by medium long, repeated, and sometimes quite complex rhythmic patterns - clave and such in South American, iqa‘at in middle...

cafesaxophone.com

More recently, I've taken the habit of noodling both to the metronom (feel the 1 or 2 or 1& etc) and a Darbuka rhythm app I have (other strong beat patterns); which I feel is good for my Rhythm/pulse feeling and improv...
.. still only a faint click.

 

[AlonW]

It seems like it doesn't suddenly click, it takes years of practice, and is a never-ending journey. Every time I play it is a challenge to focus enough to play something I am happy with. If I am not trying, then my playing would be meaningless. It is the same as learning to be thoughtful before speaking. It takes a little bit of concentration. A lot of it has to do with other things going on in my life, and how I feel in that moment. For me, improvising successfully requires all the above things to be in order (focusing, feeling good). Also learning to play in unfamiliar keys challenges me to improvise in new ways and think differently, and seems to be helping a lot in the learning process.

One thing that hasn't helped me is transcribing solos. Every time I did this I felt like it was practicing to be inauthentic.

 

[wakyct]

and a Darbuka rhythm app.

What one do you have?

 

[mizmar]

What one do you have?

Robo Darbuka

It's a bit shabby but, so far, has the rhythms I've needed and quite cheap.

Robo Darbuka - Apps on Google Play

Write a Darbuka rhythm and Robo Darbuka will play it for you!

play.google.com

 

[CliveMA]

One thing that hasn't helped me is transcribing solos. Every time I did this I felt like it was practicing to be inauthentic.

Are you transcribing playing that you admire?

Surely the admired playing can inspire new ideas and new colours and new rhythms that expand your palette as opposed to literal note-for-note licks?

For example, discovering you can use a different type of scale over a particular chord that may never have occurred to you before. How is that inauthentic?

What are you trying to learn from transcribing that makes the process feel inauthentic?

 

[AlonW]

Are you transcribing playing that you admire?

Surely the admired playing can inspire new ideas and new colours and new rhythms that expand your palette as opposed to literal note-for-note licks?

For example, discovering you can use a different type of scale over a particular chord that may never have occurred to you before. How is that inauthentic?

What are you trying to learn from transcribing that makes the process feel inauthentic?

I just found it to be a boring exercise that my ADHD brain couldn't handle. I'd rather listen to the record and absorb the music that way, because then I don't have to work out the notes on my horn, I can just relax and enjoy the sound of it. Then when I pick up my horn later, I will be filled with inspiration from what I listened to.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I just found it to be a boring exercise that my ADHD brain couldn't handle. I'd rather listen to the record and absorb the music that way, because then I don't have to work out the notes on my horn, I can just relax and enjoy the sound of it. Then when I pick up my horn later, I will be filled with inspiration from what I listened to.

Looking at a transcription is about informing yourself of anything you’ve heard before that you just can’t work out.

 

[Pete Effamy]

…writing it down is probably only useful if you spend time as a reading musician in a band. Before that though, the process begins with you finding the notes - either by ear, or on your horn too - which you may already do sometimes. If so, you’re already transcribing.

 

[Pete Thomas]

For example, discovering you can use a different type of scale over a particular chord that may never have occurred to you before. How is that inauthentic?

Well it could be argued that the entire scale over chord concept is inauthentic in that often an analyst might define a scale from the notes played by the player, who wasn’t actually thinking of a scale but subconsciously playing a melodic line of phrase, that possible had some "wrong notes" they didn't mean to play.

The idea of scale to fit a chord is partial nonsense because it ignores context. For instance someone playing a bebop scale on a dominant means there will be a major 7, but that only makes sense as a passing note

 

[PiccoloPirate]

A good study for those having trouble, when improvising on tunes.
In G minor Concert, 6/8, with a rhythm of,
eighth, eighth, eighth and dotted quarter note, repeated for four measures, start the first measure with a G.
Then use just one note/tone for each of the next three measures.
The fifth and following measures are whatever you want to play, in G minor and in 6/8.
E minor and A minor, depending on your horn.

The old, write a walking bass line, using only chord tones, any octave, over a 12 bar blues, has been discussed.

Bach, Telemann and other simple tunes, from long ago, once memorized and seeing how they started with a theme, and moved along, are helpful to learn/study.

 

[Pete Effamy]

A good study for those having trouble, when improvising on tunes.
In G minor Concert, 6/8, with a rhythm of,
eighth, eighth, eighth and dotted quarter note, repeated for four measures, start the first measure with a G.
Then use just one note/tone for each of the next three measures.
The fifth and following measures are whatever you want to play, in G minor and in 6/8.
E minor and A minor, depending on your horn.

The old, write a walking bass line, using only chord tones, any octave, over a 12 bar blues, has been discussed.

Bach, Telemann and other simple tunes, from long ago, once memorized and seeing how they started with a theme, and moved along, are helpful to learn/study.

Why 6/8? Most people will be playing in 4/4, so effectively 6/8 is in 3/4, unless you find yourself in the court of Henry VIII

 

[Targa]

Why 6/8? Most people will be playing in 4/4, so effectively 6/8 is in 3/4, unless you find yourself in the court of Henry VIII

Henry's 6/8 was DBDDBA

 

[Nick Wyver]

effectively 6/8 is in 3/4

Leonard Bernstein would like a word.

I improvise in 6/8 quite often.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Leonard Bernstein would like a word.

I improvise in 6/8 quite often.

But you are not representing the majority here Nick. And Lennie would remind you that that piece alternates between 6/8 and 3/4 rather than staying in 6/8

 

[Nick Wyver]

But you are not representing the majority here Nick.

That's a relief.

And Lennie would remind you that that piece alternates between 6/8 and 3/4 rather than staying in 6/8

That's rather what I was getting at.
😀

 

[rhysonsax]

Henry's 6/8 was DBDDBA

I thought it was DBDDBS ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

I thought it was DBDDBS ?

Rhys

Me too. I didn’t get what A meant