Playing the saxophone Improvisation - Does it suddenly 'click'?

[Pete Effamy]

overnight

Certainly not on your Nelly.

 

[mizmar]

Observe how kids learn to speak and to walk. No theory books.
Mostly imitation, interaction, and a lot of repetition and training.

Which is fine for speech, walking etc. most kids are built to learn to talk and walk. Not so great for calculus or driving a car
For other things, sometimes more structured pedagogy is required - sometimes some people are "naturals" while others need more structure, work etc.

 

[Colin the Bear]

You need to know the rules, to know when to break them.

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" C. S. Forrester.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Here's an old exercise based on the
C Major scale's fingering.
Concert key depending on instrument.
Bb, Eb or G, as in AltoFlute.
Memorize it and then work on a rhythm variation.
No rules other than to play the notes/tones in the order given and you may play the same note more than just one time.
ie, dotted quarter followed by an eighth note or whatever you decided.
Make it musical.

 

[Colin the Bear]

As in Taming the Saxophone?🙄

 

[PiccoloPirate]

As stated, you walk before you can run or fly..... said the Bird.
Arpeggios for C7, F7 and G7.
Memorize them by playing your horn.
Up and down, beyond what's written, depending on your current playing abilities.
Sing them once memorized.
Over a 12 bar blues, using only quarter notes, Write, a Melodic walking bass line.
You may use the notes, of the arpeggios, higher or lower than shown.
You may use the same note/tone, more than once in a row.
This is accomplished without your horn.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

As in Taming the Saxophone?🙄

Learned that in the early '70s, from a red haired Scotsman, who came to NYC in the mid '50s, when he was 15, with his guitar.
He had chops and could read like a pianist.

 

[Digger2054]

You need to know the rules, to know when to break them.

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" C. S. Forrester.

Reminds me of another quote.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something"

I've a lesson this week so will see if we can backtrack a little and get the foundation more solid. Got a concert in July and a lots of new pieces to practice for that too.

 

[skeller047]

Foundations are good. The best foundation for improvising is … improvising.

We all have some kind of internal concept of the piece of music we are playing; what that concept looks like depends on our individual taste and what we have studied. As you learn more things, your internal blueprint will change. But there isn’t a “right” way to improvise, and you don’t need a lot of arcane knowledge to improvise. You just need to be brave enough to do it.

What I am saying is don’t wait for foundations. They are important, but improvising is really just making stuff up. Foundational knowledge may affect what you come up with, but you have to get used to coming up with stuff. That’s the key thing.

 

[Digger2054]

Foundations are good. The best foundation for improvising is … improvising.

What I am saying is don’t wait for foundations. They are important, but improvising is really just making stuff up. Foundational knowledge may affect what you come up with, but you have to get used to coming up with stuff. That’s the key thing.

Funnily enough my teacher has said similar, don't over think it and just mess around... It sounds oh so simple

 

[Pete Effamy]

Eddie Daniels calls it noodling. Fiddling about. It doesn’t need to be with any sort of backing or have any harmonic structure or purpose. It’s about hearing notes and their relationship to one another. What different intervals sound like. Making up little motifs and maybe finding them elsewhere on the instrument - either further up in the same key or maybe transposed.
It’s the opposite to a structured practice of patterns/licks - and a lick doesn’t have to be someone else’s lick.
I think that it’s important ‘discovery of the instrument’ time.

 

[Pete Effamy]

As stated, you walk before you can run or fly..... said the Bird.
Arpeggios for C7, F7 and G7.
Memorize them by playing your horn.
Up and down, beyond what's written, depending on your current playing abilities.
Sing them once memorized.
Over a 12 bar blues, using only quarter notes, Write, a Melodic walking bass line.
You may use the notes, of the arpeggios, higher or lower than shown.
You may use the same note/tone, more than once in a row.
This is accomplished without your horn.
View attachment 26268

The only problem with the above is that whilst you’ve explained in words that they need not start/stop in these places, I’d attach a re-grouping so that voice leading is really nice. Give it as an example of how they can really sound great with each other.
Otherwise you end up with the piano player equivalent of moving up and down the keyboard instead of playing inversions, and the students wonder why it sounds bad when the notes are correct.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Hope this helps. 😀
You only have these notes/tones to work with.
C E G Bb
F A C Eb
G B D F
You can play them in any octave or order you wish.
Just that simple.
No math or theory involved.
The goal is to create a melodic quarter note bass line, from the mind,
******without using their horn.******
An exercise that is used by musicians who graduated Juilliard, Manhattan School of Music, other schools and then got their Masters in Music Education.
There are other exercises that follow, but that's for starters.
Let's see how the OP/others do with walking and post their written music. 🧐

Lets the music teacher know what's up with the students thinking, like an English teacher giving the students a creative writing assignment.
Might lead to buying a Bari or Bass and sending the upright/electric bass player home. 😱

 

[Pete Effamy]

Hope this helps. 😀
You only have these notes/tones to work with.
C E G Bb
F A C Eb
G B D F
You can play them in any octave or order you wish.
Just that simple.
No math or theory involved.
The goal is to create a melodic quarter note bass line, from the mind,
******without using their horn.******
An exercise that is used by musicians who graduated Juilliard, Manhattan School of Music, other schools and then got their Masters in Music Education.
There are other exercises that follow, but that's for starters.
Let's see how the OP/others do with walking and post their written music. 🧐

Lets the music teacher know what's up with the students thinking, like an English teacher giving the students a creative writing assignment.
Might lead to buying a Bari or Bass and sending the upright/electric bass player home. 😱

Oh I hadn’t read the writing of a walking bass line bit. This is a very “music education “ approach (as an introduction to improvisation)…

 

[Colin the Bear]

Learned that in the early '70s, from a red haired Scotsman, who came to NYC in the mid '50s, when he was 15, with his guitar.
He had chops and could read like a pianist.

Kathy Stobbart recommended it to me, early 1980's.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Great exercise that was valuable for guitar students and future surgeons.
Lotsa music possible in position.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Great exercise that was valuable for guitar students and future surgeons.
Lotsa music possible in position.
View attachment 26277

Ok, I’ll go first. If I turn it upside down I can see two butterflies sat on an igloo 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Digger2054]

Had my lesson and told the teacher my brain was frazzled with improvising... seems it's not uncommon.

We looked at a couple of solo transcriptions, to see that there's quite a lot of repetition, and variations on an idea within them.

We took a single bar of a solo, and saw how much mileage you can get out of that single bar.

Working that bar through the chords, then start altering it, starting on different degree, going up, going down.

With enough practice, something should stick, and incorporate the ideas, rather than aimless noodle around. The general jist was, mess around 🤣 if nothing else it should help with my arpeggios in a useful manner, rather than just playing up and down them.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Here's a little ramble. Feel free to ignore it (most have done in the past).

I taught sax for 30 years. Retired 6 years ago. Mostly private tuition but some school stuff. Most of my students were children.

In 30 years virtually all of the kids and most of the adults were completely uninterested in jazz, or any other variety of improvisation. Despite this, i tried with everybody to get them to do at least a little bit of noodling without the dots in front of them. I'd guess at least half of them (probably more) utterly refused. Most of the ones that did try gave up pretty soon. Apparently because they thought they were rubbish at it.

Now, bearing in mind that many of them were complete beginners at sax, why were they perfectly happy to be rubbish at reading but not at not reading? It's as if they expected to be like John Coltrane (who they wouldn't have heard of) from the start. And if they weren't, well then, they were not going to bother.

I should point out that no theory was involved, so they weren't bogged down with chords and scales. All they had to do was to be able to play a few notes. Just one or two to start with, but still most of them wouldn't attempt it.

I've never really understood why. It's practically the exact opposite to how I started. I was improvising as soon as the sax was in my hands.

Anyway, noodling is good. Do it. Listen to what you're doing. Forget about theory, chords, scales and all that stuff - it just clogs your brain. Just play. You'll get better at it.

Here's a little bit of improvisation that isn't jazz.

Bunny.mp3 | Powered by Box

app.box.com

 

[mizmar]

All they had to do was to be able to play a few notes. Just one or two to start with, but still most of them wouldn't attempt it.

I've never really understood why. It's practically the exact opposite to how I started. I was improvising as soon as the sax was in my hands.

I think it's a common problem with teachers is specialist areas. They get there because, in part, the thing is natural and easy, so a pleasure to work hard on and achieve some success. Then they don't have to personal experience to understand the challenges or blockages amongst those who struggle more.
I went through school dyslexic and bad handwriting - and it was a source of bafflement and, Indeed, annoyance to many teachers.