Playing the saxophone Improvisation - Does it suddenly 'click'?

[Digger2054]

I've been venturing into Improvisation with my teacher, who at the very start asked how I'd like to proceed. Use some scales, or improvise over chord changes. In my (naive) mind, and a sucker for punishment, improvising over chords being the 'proper' way.

Until now I've made good progress with my playing, although there still things to work on improving.

With improvising, a whole new world of jargon' and theory is being introduced, and progress feels painfully slow - That said I'm likely comparing myself to other players who've been playing consistently for most of their lives, so I've some catching up to do!

My question being, will the penny drop?

I'm working on improvising over Autumn Leaves, is it best to concentrate on the one piece, and then future pieces will naturally become easier as things start to make sense?

All the whilst trying to get more proficient with my arpeggios and chord tones, work on my playing overall, and get some practice in on the concert pieces. There just doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day. I'll be speaking with my teacher and seeing if I can get some exercises together to get a solid foundation.

Is improvising as mammoth a challenge as it first appears?
How did you find learning to improvise?

 

[Colin the Bear]

There's a difference between improvising and creating a solo.

Both are composing.
However, working out a solo, before hand, in your own time is a good way to start. imo.

Being able to make something up, on the spot, by ear is much harder. It's something that may or may not come to you. It's something to aim for and till it comes, enjoy and marvel at those who can.

I find noodling around a fixed format like a 12 bar blues can help to inform, direct and improve any creative instincts.

Playing around with standards is another useful tool. There's lots of information in the way songs and tunes that have stood the test of time are constructed.

Autumn Leaves is an excellent way into improv. Simple and perfect imo. I've been playing it for decades and can still find new ways through it.

Don't get fixated on chord tones and notes and neglect phrasing and rhythm. Try one note solos.

It's a journey with no destination. Enjoy the ride. Take in the view.

 

[Wade Cornell]

There is a big divide between those who improvise by "theory" and those who are melodic players. Theory is an academic attempt to teach something creative as though it's engineering. See a chord and memorize the arpeggio, chord tones, remember some riffs to throw in, etc. It's "paint by the numbers". If one is playing long enough you may eventually find your way around the horn and be an OK player.

The melodic or ear player plays as they would sing. That takes years of playing so that you can literally play what you would sing. Becoming familiar with playing in all keys and reacting with music can help overcome the awkwardness of trying to peck at notes and frustratingly not hearing what you'd imagined. It's like learning to drive a car. At first everything is awkward and you need to actively concentrate on everything. Eventually it's all very automatic and you can carry on a conversation, listen to music etc. without thinking how many degrees you need to turn the wheel to stay in your lane.

The creative part is the same as singing. Listen to autumn leaves and sing your version of it. Try doing variations, use the timing differently, etc. Now try to do that on your horn. yea, it's difficult, but eventually it's doable.

IMHO the theory direction is a dead end. Those that practice a lot a lot eventually develop speed via repeated riffs and arpeggios. Impressive? Not to an audience! Achieving a level of technique can be rewarding to an individual, yet say nothing to an audience. Entertainment is in giving listeners a story, emotions, or at least something to dance to. Few want to watch someone trying to impress them. This is the common failing of most "theory" teaching.

Practice a lot and one way or the other you'll progress, but if playing for others is a goal, you're heading in the wrong direction using theory.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I started improvising the first time I bought a sax, 52 years ago. I'd like to think I've gradually got better at it. I don't recall any 'ahah!' moments.

 

[DavidUK]

What fun! My tutor and I did improv duets only a few times but it was scary fun.
It's out of my comfort zone but keep at it if you want to progress in this direction. Don't be put off by slow progress.

 

[thomsax]

The "environment" is important. At least for me. My best, I'm no good at improvising, I did at blues and rock jams. As sax player I'm rather introvert. But I can be creative in the back.

 

[Digger2054]

I don't think we're heading down the paint by numbers route, although there's been some pointers as to what is 'safe' and 'works' to get me through it, and then generally go and play around. Theory really isn't my thing, I just want to play my horn.

My teacher and I have spoken about heavily theory driven solos, whilst impressive to some players, the average Joe probably just hears noise. I much prefer the melodic solos than something that's theoretically technically correct

My last improvised solo, I was given triad pairs and told play around with it, a few weeks later I had what passed for a solo, and was really quite good fun.

Perhaps I should concentrate on improvising over the one standard and build from there, doesn't sound like it's going happen overnight.

 

[rhysonsax]

Not really an "Ahah" moment, but I think that when the improviser stops treating the rest of the band as a backing track and starts to interact with them, magical things can happen. That really needs open ears and an ability to hear musical ideas in your "inner ear" and then to execute those ideas with your voice or instrument.

Copying and call and response are good practice for this.

I think it is expecting a lot for a beginner improviser to play an interesting and musically satisfying solo over many, many bars, for instance one or more choruses of a 32 bar standard. A quick 12 bars or even four can be enough to start with. And then gradually learning how to develop further ideas from an initial motif or by variations on a previous idea or the original melody.

And also when a developing improviser realises that using space in a solo is a good idea and not every single bar and beat has to be filled up.

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

(I was given triad pairs and told play around with it,

What exactly is that? Obviously it's a pair of triads, but why?

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Would be helpful to know your current skill level. Do you play and memorize classical literature?
How accomplished are your scale and arpeggio skills?
Do you memorize tunes like Autumn Leaves etc etc?
"Mine the Mind", unless of course it's empty. Ya gots to fill it first.

 

[Digger2054]

What exactly is that? Obviously it's a pair of triads, but why?

This solo (skip the video to about 2mins) was over alternating E9 & D9 chords, to keep things simple just used the E9 & D9 Triads (E, G#, B, & D F# A) and think more rhythmically... the attempt at the Cannonball trill wasn't quite using those notes 😳

@PiccoloPirate my teacher is a Jazz player so most of my study/interest is around that, although I do play a broad genre of music with the Orchestra I play with. I've a few 'tunes' memorised but that's probably through repetition.

Scales & arpeggio's are reasonable, but still need work especially not starting from the root. There's plenty to keep me amused and busy practicing but there's not enough hours in the day.

Perhaps I'm just being impatient and expecting to run before I can walk.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Chord extensions can be useful if you're soloing over a new or unfamiliar melody from a chart.

Remember that there are no wrong notes, just interesting harmonies. Where you go next can resolve an accidental wandering off key.

 

[wakyct]

My tutor and I did improv duets only a few times but it was scary fun

@Digger2054 I think this is a good suggestion, I've also done this a few times in lesson and it really helps with timing, listening, etc.

Use some scales, or improvise over chord changes

I think there's a third option -- listen to something you like and emulate it.

An analogy might be learning to write creatively. I think it's safe to say most writers have read a lot. In the process they learn vocabulary (short patterns of notes), phrasing (connecting those patterns), flow of sentences (playing interesting lines over multiple bars), etc.

Of course there's a lot more to learn -- in fiction, character development, plot, etc., which might be compared to playing your horn in the larger context of the music, the other instruments and so on.

Learning all that without a lot of listening would be rather difficult IMO.

 

[Pete Effamy]

What exactly is that? Obviously it's a pair of triads, but why?

Presumably because it’s the “key” to sounding cool, modern and “outside”.

As usual, it sounds relatively simple but in practice it’s pretty difficult to hang it together in a cool, modern, outside way.

 

[skeller047]

There are so many ways to approach the idea of learning jazz improvisation. But they all boil down to one thing - how to choose what note to play, and having made the choice, what note comes next? If you train yourself to play patterns, then the choice is moved upstream a bit - what well-known group of notes to play, rather than an individual note. If you train yourself to play arpeggios, then you choose one of the notes in the currently sounding chord, and a direction. If you train yourself to think melodically, then you might choose a note based on its relationship a previous one you played.

In jazz it doesn’t much matter which training(s) you embrace, as long as you swing 🙂 So rhythmic training is part of the picture too. It sounds like a lot to think about, and it is. The solution? Don’t think, feel. Be aware.

What people usually call “theory” is really just understanding how harmony works. There is so much more to learn, but people get hung up on that aspect.

My suggestion is to keep sight of what you want to do - which is to know your next note, and to choose it because of a (musical) reason that you have. What are you trying to say? How do you want to sound? What does “good” sound like? How does music make you feel? Keep those in mind, study all the different ways to think about music, but keep your goal in mind and follow your heart.

When it “clicks” is when you play a phrase and you say to yourself “that sounded good”. Cherish those moments. Try to remember WHY you played those notes. We all have an internal picture of what we are doing, what the tune we are playing is about, where we are in that tune, etc. That picture keeps changing as you learn more ways to think and feel about music. But notes that sound good, those are forever.

 

[dexdex]

Observe how kids learn to speak and to walk. No theory books.
Mostly imitation, interaction, and a lot of repetition and training.
Choosing the right note, the right phrase, navigating through typical chord changes is very similar to speech.
By the way, you will often read and hear the advice to sing along, before taking a piece of phrase to your fingers. A way to be sure you have it inside your ears and brain, without the obstacle of the clumsy keys of our beloved horns. Specially in concert E….
Speaking of swing and timing, thanks @skeller047, there is a cool video (YT) by sax player Bob Reynolds about Frank Sinatra. Franky almost never “improvised” the way Ella or Louis did. No scat. But, he is often stated as THE “timing” man. He “just” sang the original melodies and lyrics, but with an amazing sense of swing.
A very constructive way to approach improvisation, specially on the standards, all those Broadway songs, is to introduce small variations along the melody. Like Franky. This speaks to the audience ways more than running arpeggios.

 

[Digger2054]

Thanks for the replies. Most of it echo's what my teacher has been saying. Sounds like it's a matter of spending more time at it, I shall persevere, sometimes it just feels so out of reach that it'll never come.

I'll keep noodling around over a couple of pieces (thanks to SOTM!) and try different things.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Presumably because it’s the “key” to sounding cool, modern and “outside”.

Im not sure about that

Use some scales, or improvise over chord changes.

The two things aren't mutually exclusive. To improvise over chords I think it's necessary to know scales to begin with, as chords are derived from scales (although some people seem to think the opposite).

I don't mean learning a scale for each chord (too complicated), I mean referring to a scale that can be referenced to a group of chords.

I'm working on improvising over Autumn Leaves, is it best to concentrate on the one piece, and then future pieces will naturally become easier as things start to make sense?

Perhaps I should concentrate on improvising over the one standard and build from there,

Yes this is a good idea IMO. And a good example of what I mean by one scale for a group of chords. In that tune you have various typical IIm7 V7 I "groups", so if for example you have Dm7 G7 C - all you need know to start with is that the C scale will be a good scale to make melodic fragments or scale passages from. As you get to know more about chord structure, then those melodic phrases (made from the C scale) will get more and more like they "fit" the chords, but even without the theory, it will sound OK.

 

[dexdex]

The “click” or “aha” happen in repeated and progressive small steps, along the way.
Again, a kid’s first walking steps will be 3 meters from his dad’s to his mom’s arms. Huge victory, huge pride.
Same for all of us learning to play our own music over chord changes.

 

[Digger2054]

I'll keep persevering, and accept it's not going to happen overnight. It's frustrating, whilst also being enjoyable. The last solo I did was improvised on the night, but I started off pondering what the hell was I going to do with 6 notes.