Teaching Idea for an on-line Lick Library

[Sweet Dreamer]

Not bad but your just playing the notes as straight crotchets, look at the first bar: 1(rest) 2&a 3&4&. Second bar:1&2&3&4& pick it up a bit, swing it! play the lick not the notes!

I'm lucky to be able to play the notes at all, much less be able to put any swing on it. 🙂))

It took me about an hour of practice just to get it to that point. This particular lick is quite advanced for my skill level. At least in terms of fingering on the Alto sax.

But hey, talk is cheap. Let's hear your recording of this lick? Show me how it's supposed to be done. ;}

There was another thread where someone was asking when can you say that you can play the sax? Well, I certainly don't claim to be able to play. But I do try. The mere fact that I actually got the notes out is quite an accomplishment for me.

But yeah, I hear ya. I'm looking forward to the day when I'll have enough control over this beast to where I can start focusing on the finesse of phrasing and swinging. As it is now, I'm still working on just being able to simply play the notes.

I'd really like to hear the swing you put on this. So I'm all ears. Post your rendition of the lick and I'll take a listen.

I'll see if I can play it with the swing.

I think this is what we really need. A web site where people can post their actual rendition of the licks.

I was just thinking of a forum where everyone is going through that Mel Bay, "Licks, Phrases, and Patterns" book. The only problem there is that there could be copyright issues involved if licks and patterns are being posted that come directly from the book.

That's a bummer. I wonder how that would work?

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

Questions for Music Teachers:

I'm playing with a lick, and I'm getting into studying it. I'm not actually interested in this particular lick, but I'd like to learn how to study licks in general. If you don't like the term "lick", just thing of it as an attempt to study musical phrases in general. ;}

To begin with, here's the musical phrase written in Concert C, Eb, Bb, and on the Bass Clef.

It's played over the following chords, D7, G7, C, C7.

It sounds like some kind of turn-a-round to me, but what do I know?

So here are my questions:

1. What key is this music in? What chord(s) could this music naturally progress to after the C7?

2. If I wanted to expand this into a larger piece of music what chord progression could I use that would include this chord sequence?

Concerning the melody, phrase, or lick:

What scale(s) should I study for this particular musical phrase?

Is one scale being used here, or are different scales being played over each chord?

How do I know what scales to study for a particular phrase, or measure?

I'm just curious in general. How would a person go about discovering these things for any piece of music or phrasing?

Just looking at the music, the second measure appears to be based on "Sweet Notes" or some kind chord arpeggio. Is that correct? It looks like a G7 chord arpeggio, except the A note is kind of throwing me for a loop there. Would that be part of a G7 arpeggio?

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I'm interested in trying to learn how to analyze music like this, so any comments would be greatly appreciated.

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Transposing Question:

I used my sheet music program to automatically transpose this particular lick into Eb and Bb. It seems to do weird stuff. Like when transposing into Eb it writes an A# for a Bb, or a B# for a C natural. Is that normal convention when transposing music, or just the way this particular sheet music program works?

Does it matter how notes are written? It seems to me that it would make more sense to use notation that is more intuitive. Like it took me a while to realize that a B# is a C natural. I was trying to think of how to play a B#, I couldn't remember having ever had to play B# before. I almost had to get out my fingering charts to look up how to play a B# when it dawned on me that a B# is just a C. If would have been written as a C natural I would have recognized it right away.

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I realize these are quite technical questions that many players would probably pass off as being far too technical and unnecessary for just playing the instrument, but I'm interested in composing and writing music as well as just playing it, so I'm interested in these kinds of "Music Theory" concepts.

If I can analyze the actual scales and chord progressions being used, then I can take a musical phrase like this one and expand on it to build an entire piece of music based on these same melodic and harmonic principles. The final result may not even contain the original phrase at all. But it would be fun to use these things as inspirational seeds to see where they lead. ;}

 

[Chris]

Re: Questions for Music Teachers:

SweetDreamer, I will have a stab at this for you. The chords are basically a 251 in the key of Cmaj. They follow that root motion D G C. Yes it could be a turnaround, Poss coming out of a bridge to the last A sec. Or think Rhythm Changes B Sec. As for scales You could think C Maj and then also add the notes from the chords that are not from C Maj if that makes sense. As for the A it is the 9th of G7 G,B,D,F,A so it would be a cool note to play. If it's Jazz then that could be a turnaround to a 2 chord eg your chords then || Dm9G7alt|Em7 |Em7|Am7D7|Fm7Bb7|EbMaj7| and so on where ever you wanted the music to go. "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine would be a good place to start reading..As for the convention on enharmonic notes some software programs do tend to do things we don't like. I think it always should follow the key sig eg if it is a sharp key then sharps should follow and vice versa for flat keys. But I am not 100% on that one. Hope it helps a little but hopefully some more will chip in and help..

 

[Fraser Jarvis]

[QUOTE=Sweet Dreamer;I'd really like to hear the swing you put on this. So I'm all ears. Post your rendition of the lick and I'll take a listen. OK, OK, Calm down! if one of you good people can explain how i can transfer the recording from my Tascam DR1 onto the forum, or indeed another way of doing it i will do it for you, as computers and technical confuse me.

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

Re: Questions for Music Teachers:

Thanks for the quick reply Chris. Yes your information is quite helpful.

The chords are basically a 251 in the key of Cmaj. They follow that root motion D G C.

That's what I was thinking too, but if I go right back into a D7 or even a plain D chord it just sounds like I'm going right back into another turn around rather than continuing on with the song. I was playing this on the guitar as accompaniment to the sax and trying to figure out how to "break out" of that 251 pattern.

Yes it could be a turnaround, Poss coming out of a bridge to the last A sec. Or think Rhythm Changes B Sec. ... If it's Jazz then that could be a turnaround to a 2 chord eg your chords then || Dm9G7alt|Em7 |Em7|Am7D7|Fm7Bb7|EbMaj7| and so on where ever you wanted the music to go.

I just played that on the guitar after the 251. YES! That sounds great! I just couldn't figure out how to break out of that 251 pattern. Nothing I was jumping to was sounding right. But the Dm9 to Em7 is a nice way out. Even a simple Dm works to transverse to the Em7, it's the Em7 that really gets you out and sets you heading off in a new direction. I couldn't figure out how to get out of that 251 hole. (ha ha)

Every time I went back to the D it just sounded like I was going back into another turn around. But playing it minor and then jumping off to the E7 is the recipe for escape.

As for scales You could think C Maj and then also add the notes from the chords that are not from C Maj if that makes sense.

Ok, that helps too. I was thinking that someone might see some specific scales being used, and I was going to ask how they can tell.

As for the A it is the 9th of G7 G,B,D,F,A so it would be a cool note to play.

I should have realized that. So that is a pretty straight-forward arpeggio in that measure then. Just consider a G9 in addition to the G7. I should have known that with Jazz.

"The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine would be a good place to start reading..

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

If one of you good people can explain how i can transfer the recording from my Tascam DR1 onto the forum, or indeed another way of doing it i will do it for you, as computers and technical confuse me.

I have no clue what a Tascam DR1 is, but I look forward to hearing your recording when you get it posted. Hopefully someone here can help you with that.

 

[Sweet Dreamer]

By the way, that Mel Bay book on Saxophone licks, phrases, and patterns came. That is a really great book. I'm enjoying it already. Work your way though this thing and you'll have a really a good arsenal of "licks". Do as they say and transpose them into ever key imaginable and you'll be all set.

This is a good book.

All I need to do now is learn how to "swing".

I still have trouble with triplets. I'm not sure how to play a triplet much differently from a string of 3 eight notes.

I've always had trouble with timing and rhythm. I'm working on the Afro-Cuban drumming book too, so that might help. I'm also working on some jazz grooves on the drum set, but even there I have a hard time fully grasping the difference between a "triplety feel" and just playing eight notes in general. Although recently I've been working on some stuff by Jo-Jo Mayer and that's starting to have a different feel for me.

Anyway, this Mel Bay book is great.

 

[Pete Thomas]

This is an old thread but I revived it because someone mentioned something similar a few days back. or did I imagine that?

 

[atwl77]

This is an old thread but I revived it because someone mentioned something similar a few days back. or did I imagine that?

Might be from this thread?

Playing - Surprisingly tricky "easy yet difficult" exercise

This totally caught me off guard. You'd think it would be easy. Maybe some of us are conditioned to think maj 7 or min7, maybe it's a case of muscle memory. Here is the lick: Down a four note triad, then up the four note triad a semitone below that and so on: I'm reasonably proficient on...

cafesaxophone.com

 

[Pete Thomas]

That's the one!

 

[rhysonsax]

Is that more of an exercise than a "Lick" ? Or maybe some simple exercises are Licks.

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is that more of an exercise than a "Lick" ? Or maybe some simple exercises are Licks.

Rhys

I was thinking semantics are not going to be our friend if we want to find a neat & simple all encompassing word/phrase.

I'm not so sure about exercises, the exercise part of it is what you do with the lick, phrases, pattern, riff - ie taking it through different keys.

hence it's either exercises or any of the other words - lick, phrases, pattern, riff or (if you want to be posh) motif.

 

[rhysonsax]

Agreed, but if something is just an arpeggio or a scale would that be worthwhile to include ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

Agreed, but if something is just an arpeggio or a scale would that be worthwhile to include ?

Rhys

I'm not so sure. I think those are different things

 

[rhysonsax]

I'm not so sure. I think those are different things

Not to quibble, but your lick/exercise in the other thread is literally an arpeggio of the major triad up to the octave, isn't it ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

Not to quibble, but your lick/exercise in the other thread is literally an arpeggio of the major triad up to the octave, isn't it ?

Rhys

Yes so would not qualify for lick of the moth.

 

[Jimmymack]

I would think that an arpeggio on its own wouldn’t qualify as a lick if it’s played as part of an exercise but something like three arpeggios a semitone apart could and if you extract a couple of turns from the one posted by Pete they could also qualify. If you take a lick, or motif, and work it through the 12 keys doesn't that make it an exercise?

 

[Wade Cornell]

What would one think of a person who could only speak in phrases used in TV ads? How about having a vocabulary of only 100 words? How about a person that couldn't tell a story or string together words that ever felt like you were talking to a person, but instead just a lot of overused catch phrases? These are mental disorders called Palilalia or Loquacious Syndrome.

Copying licks and phrases can be an OK exercise, however IMHO that's not a destination. Developing a mental library of licks to continually uses as "cut and paste" without consideration of every other aspect of music would be a tragic mistake. We are or become what we practice.

Music is at its best a form of communication. If all you have to offer is a collection of overused licks you're just making yourself musically into one of those unfortunate people who can't effectively communicate.

 

[Pete Thomas]

That’s a good point not to rely on just playing licks. Licks can of course be used as technical exercises, but for impro I like to think they are a kind of fallback for those of us whose brain isn’t up to 100% pure improvising. OK as long as you use as creatively as possible.

 

[Wade Cornell]

That’s a good point not to rely on just playing licks. Licks can of course be used as technical exercises, but for impro I like to think they are a kind of fallback for those of us whose brain isn’t up to 100% pure improvising. OK as long as you use as creatively as possible.

I think of them best used as an "um" moment between phrases that can give space before playing a phrase that has meaning.