Intonation How to tune a sax?

[Woodpad]

Neither funny nor dangerous. This was only meant to elaborate on some of the issues that are often overlooked when setting up an instrument using "catalog values", not as a method for bending notes.

If you have a horn with very deep seats in the pads, chances are that they are not only sticking and "sluggish" but also impact the intonation, regardless of the key opening and other setup parameters. On bigger horns, alto, tenor ... this does not affect the intonation as much but I have set up enough sopranos to know how much of a difference it can make.

If you read my above post you'll understand that it is meant to encourage players to play with a butterfly touch rather than what you insinuate.

I know we are really trying to convey the same here, so it's all good.

We both agree on the dangers of deep seats but I still find this a hillarous method to to change the conicity of a saxophone.

 

[LostCircuits]

We both agree on the dangers of deep seats but I still find this a hillarous method to to change the conicity of a saxophone.

It's not a method it's an artifact of bad playing habits and old, worn pads or, bad pad leveling compensated for by extensive clamping. On my own the seats are just "shadows". I honestly have no idea where you get your interpretation of my post but it's ok.

 

[Woodpad]

It's not a method it's an artifact of bad playing habits and old, worn pads or, bad pad leveling compensated for by extensive clamping. On my own the seats are just "shadows". I honestly have no idea where you get your interpretation of my post but it's ok.

Found the culprit. For this phenomenon you may use the word method in Dutch, but not in English. It is a subtle difference and Dutch is not a good language for subtility. I am sorry for my lack of English knowledge.

 

[thomsax]

Double

 

[thomsax]

Timbre isn’t part of intonation / tuning.

According to my old music theory books intonation, when it comes to music, is more than to play at the right "pitch" (tonhöjd), it's also to play the right "interval" (the distance between two tones ; minor second m1, major second M2 .....) and to optimize the "timbre" (klang) of an instrument. What do we mean when we are writing when a sax is suffering from poor intonation? Is it that the sax or is it player need to practise more pitch -, interval - and timbre - exercises? It can be the sax as well. Maybe built with old inventory and old tools and sold to be good enough for beginners?

The music that comes out from our saxes is not the same. I'm just now writing about one of households gods, John Fogerty (Creedence Clearwater Revival).

" I played sax on "Travelin' Band," the Creedence single that came out in January 1970. I just felt the urge to pay homage to that whole Little Richard sound. I had gone and rented a sax the early sixties to play a song that Tom had written called "Watusi Lucy." I had practiced enough to play that little little part, which is exactly what I did with "Travelin' Band.". Of course, what I really should've done is get a real horn section. That's what the Beatles would've done, but somehow there's that thing in my head: "I'll do it myself." In a way, that made it sound charming, homemade."

Charming & Homemade sounds good to me.

Back to topic.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Bigger Wider Sound and Relaxed Embouchure all go together really

Well I think they can do and I understand why you say that, but this got me thinking.

Does you sound get bigger and wider the more you relax?

Sometimes I want a smaller narrower sound and I can also achieve that with a relaxed embouchure. But then I was wondering what actually is a big and wide sound?

My ideal was always total versatility so a flexible embouchure seemed to be the best way forward rather than one that had to be one thing or another.7

 

[Pete Effamy]

According to my old music theory books intonation, when it comes to music, is more than to play at the right "pitch" (tonhöjd), it's also to play the right "interval" (the distance between two tones ; minor second m1, major second M2 .....) and to optimize the "timbre" (klang) of an instrument. What do we mean when we are writing when a sax is suffering from poor intonation? Is it that the sax or is it player need to practise more pitch -, interval - and timbre - exercises? It can be the sax as well. Maybe built with old inventory and old tools and sold to be good enough for beginners?

The music that comes out from our saxes is not the same. I'm just now writing about one of households gods, John Fogerty (Creedence Clearwater Revival).

" I played sax on "Travelin' Band," the Creedence single that came out in January 1970. I just felt the urge to pay homage to that whole Little Richard sound. I had gone and rented a sax the early sixties to play a song that Tom had written called "Watusi Lucy." I had practiced enough to play that little little part, which is exactly what I did with "Travelin' Band.". Of course, what I really should've done is get a real horn section. That's what the Beatles would've done, but somehow there's that thing in my head: "I'll do it myself." In a way, that made it sound charming, homemade."

Charming & Homemade sounds good to me.

Back to topic.

I don’t know Thom. It seems like we’re getting into philosophy of sound .

All I can say that everyone can hear poor intonation regardless of how good a tone / sound is.

With respect to the other stuff you say, I’m not quite sure what you’re saying - are you saying that some saxes, regardless of price or “pecking order” can deliver something that others can’t? I agree, I’ve said that before. It’s why I don’t like Yamaha or Yanagisawa - for me, I can’t get other tones out of them easily.

 

[ellinas]

I start by tuning a couple notes with a tuner .... i then play about 15 minutes... of course the horn has a new tuning tendency and i tune then by ear to what sounds ok in context. strangely enough sometimes what glues with a band or a recording .... might be off center in my tuner. 90% a bit sharp and oddly enough 10% flat.
Also some horns tend to play better a tiny bit off ... and they "open" sonically whatever that means. that tiny bit off can add to the sound.
It's all in our heads.

The truth is that after i stopped being crazy about the tuner...I got much better at being in tune.

 

[Woodpad]

The truth is that after i stopped being crazy about the tuner...I got much better at being in tune.

Some notes in blues shouldn't be played in tune.

 

[turf3]

Some notes in blues shouldn't be played in tune.

That's a misunderstanding of the function of pitch inflections in African-American improvised music.

 

[Pete Thomas]

That's a misunderstanding of the function of pitch inflections in African-American improvised music.

I don’t think so, I believe I understand Woodpad means and it’s about not being in tune with a (ET) tuner.

 

[turf3]

I don’t think so, I believe I understand Woodpad means and it’s about not being in tune with a (ET) tuner.

Well, I was probably too subtle and too short, but my point is that blues and other styles where pitch inflection is used for emphasis and other reasons don't conform to what an electronic tunes says. Those notes aren't out of tune, they're in tune for the music they're being used to play.

I remember listening to a jazz album with a young lady who was all-classical-all-time-time and that was one of the first things she said - "why do they play out of tune so much?" and I attempted to explain that it wasn't "out of tune", it was correct for the kind of music being played. That in African-American improvised music a wide range or pitch and timbre modifications are acceptable, nay expected, and that those effects follow their own rules. Again, it's not "out of tune", it's using a different tuning plan.

 

[Pete Thomas]

a wide range or pitch and timbre modifications are acceptable, nay expected, and that those effects follow their own rules. Again, it's not "out of tune", it's using a different tuning plan.

The problem though it isn't really a different tuning plan, you cannot analyse it give it a tuning plan as in define what pitch a blue note, e.g. a flat 3 should be. Often it's somewhere between a major and minor 3rd but there is no rule s to exactly the pitch.

Just as with rhythm - e.g. bounced 8th notes. Although many people want to analyse and know, they often are not in an exact triplet feel, nor is there a specific long - short ratio that many people would like so they can analyse what they call "swing" in order to do it like Art Blakey. OTOH you can measure the accuracy of straight 8s. (If that is what they are supposed to be)

 

[turf3]

The problem though it isn't really a different tuning plan, you cannot analyse it give it a tuning plan as in define what pitch a blue note, e.g. a flat 3 should be. Often it's somewhere between a major and minor 3rd but there is no rule s to exactly the pitch.

Just as with rhythm - e.g. bounced 8th notes. Although many people want to analyse and know, they often are not in an exact triplet feel, nor is there a specific long - short ratio that many people would like so they can analyse what they call "swing" in order to do it like Art Blakey. OTOH you can measure the accuracy of straight 8s. (If that is what they are supposed to be)

My point is that these pitch-inflected notes aren't "out of tune", they're supposed to be that way.

 

[mizmar]

Maybe we need to be more relaxed about tuning?

The estimable Sarah Jeffery just put up a video interview with Ron Warren, an American, indigenous fløytist; he reckons so long as the tuning relates well to you it'll be fine.
Very laid-back, I thought,

View: https://youtu.be/XYFg9zKWEHI?t=15m20s

 

[Pete Thomas]

My point is that these pitch-inflected notes aren't "out of tune", they're supposed to be that way.

Very often but I wouldn't generalise and say that within a blues genre someone can't be out of tune. Because they can be. I have been a rock and blues musician all my life and I know there were times I was out of tune and fellow blues musicians had no qualms about telling me so and I didn't come back with, what are you talking about? this is blues! It's still possible to be out of tune.

Maybe not measurable on a tuning device but you can still play blues and be out of tune even within the genre. I understand your point about a classical musician thinking a jazz musician might be out of tune if they use conventional classical music parameters, just saying you cannot always use jazz, blues or other genres as an excuse.

 

[Pete Effamy]

My point is that these pitch-inflected notes aren't "out of tune", they're supposed to be that way.

As a Cockney would say; “stating the bleedin’ obvious “.

 

[turf3]

Very often but I wouldn't generalise and say that within a blues genre someone can't be out of tune. Because they can be. I have been a rock and blues musician all my life and I know there were times I was out of tune and fellow blues musicians had no qualms about telling me so and I didn't come back with, what are you talking about? this is blues! It's still possible to be out of tune.

Maybe not measurable on a tuning device but you can still play blues and be out of tune even within the genre. I understand your point about a classical musician thinking a jazz musician might be out of tune if they use conventional classical music parameters, just saying you cannot always use jazz, blues or other genres as an excuse.

I absolutely agree. Pitch manipulation for aesthetic purposes in the context of jazz, blues, or other such, is NOT "playing out of tune", and there is still "Being in tune" in those styles.

 

[mizmar]

I heard reindeer snot is superior!

Worth pointing out, more a safety warning than anything, that both super glue and reindeer (actually, we have roe deer visiting the garden) snot on the fingers knackers phone biosensors.

 

[Targa]

Worth pointing out, more a safety warning than anything, that both super glue and reindeer (actually, we have roe deer visiting the garden) snot on the fingers knackers phone biosensors.

I will forgo the enquiry as to your actions and the reasons thereof which enabled the acquisition of super glue and reindeer snot on your fingers.