Intonation How to tune a sax?

[Tenor Viol]

... From a players perspective this is a good thing I think.

As I said in an earlier post, I am trying to avoid going down the temperaments discussion, but no, this is not necessarily a good thing since it will almost certainly give you the 'correct' tuning for playing in 'equal temperament', which is OK if you are a piano, or other fixed pitch instrument. It is not OK if you are a woodwind, string, or brass player, or a vocalist.

As other have said, use a meter to check the basic tuning of the instrument, but it will not be very helpful for 'tuning' as you're playing.

Temperaments are simple and complex at the same time. The concept is relatively simple, the solutions are very complex partly because ultimately there is no 'right' answer (it's a problem that ultimately has no real solution that works for all keys). Equal temperament is a compromise, and is used by pianos etc. It enables playing more-or-less in tune in all keys but it is slightly out-of-tune most of the time. Your meter will almost certainly default to ET and to concert A = 440Hz.

In the table below, 12TET is 'twelve tone equal temperament' i.e. the tuning we tend to use. The right hand column is the one to look at. It shows the tuning error using ET from 'just' intonation given in cents. A cent in this case being 1/100th of a semitone (an octave being 1,200 cents). The only interval in tune is the octave. The fifth is close but very slightly narrow - enough to get a beat. The third though is the killer - it is significantly out-of-tune, as is its reciprocal the sixth.

Table is from this article on Wiki.

I hope that helps.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Timbre isn’t part of intonation / tuning.

On the face of it yes, but I wonder if some aspects such as growl or partial growl, split notes etc can introduce rogue harmonics that might have a bearing. Just a thought, I don’t actually have any evidence.

 

[turf3]

On the face of it yes, but I wonder if some aspects such as growl or partial growl, split notes etc can introduce rogue harmonics that might have a bearing. Just a thought, I don’t actually have any evidence.

Timbre can absolutely affect the perception of tuning. This is why for example people say "Jackie Maclean played sharp all the time". No he didn't. He played with a tone quality that gave the perception of being sharp.

 

[jazzdoh]

Or you are so much concentrating on the needle or LEDs that your ears take a backseat in the process?

Yes I would say this is what would happen if you consistently relied on a tuner.

 

[mizmar]

tuning error using ET from 'just' intonation given in cents

I kind of think part of the problem is that, although using cents for ET is fine, people should use shillings and pennys for just intonation.

ET: the only tuning that's 100% microtonal

 

[Pete Thomas]

No he didn't. He played with a tone quality that gave the perception of being sharp

Maybe but perception is what counts. And anyway it’s much better to be sharp than out of tune.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Timbre can absolutely affect the perception of tuning. This is why for example people say "Jackie Maclean played sharp all the time". No he didn't. He played with a tone quality that gave the perception of being sharp.

So why is it not said of Sanborn? Not dissimilar sounds particularly. I’m not saying that Jackie played sharp. I know little of his playing, but like what I do know a lot.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I kind of think part of the problem is that, although using cents for ET is fine, people should use shillings and pennys for just intonation.

But there is a case for using cents with just intonation for example when think of it in comparisons, eg a just major third is x number of cents sharper than an ET major third.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Maybe but perception is what counts. And anyway it’s much better to be sharp than out of tune.

A little sharp is mere topspin. Any flatness is offensive.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So why is it not said of Sanborn?

I think it may be a very different sound, especially vibrato.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I think it may be a very different sound, especially vibrato.

On the side of edge, “pure” no fluff though. Sanborn further. Sanborn does play without (start notes) vib. I think they are ball park.

 

[LostCircuits]

funny and dangerous.

Probably you could squeese out a still higher note by using a light touch on the left hand and gorrilla grip on the right hand.
I can't do that with my own pads as they have only a thin layer of compressible silicone. I just don't want to stimulate Gorrilla grip as it does so much damage to the horn.

The other danger is that it may revive the parabolic discussion and we already live in intresting times.

Neither funny nor dangerous. This was only meant to elaborate on some of the issues that are often overlooked when setting up an instrument using "catalog values", not as a method for bending notes.

If you have a horn with very deep seats in the pads, chances are that they are not only sticking and "sluggish" but also impact the intonation, regardless of the key opening and other setup parameters. On bigger horns, alto, tenor ... this does not affect the intonation as much but I have set up enough sopranos to know how much of a difference it can make.

If you read my above post you'll understand that it is meant to encourage players to play with a butterfly touch rather than what you insinuate.

I know we are really trying to convey the same here, so it's all good.

 

[mizmar]

Finally the real answer. Stand down, folks, it's sorted.

Tune your sax to F#

It's the only note needed.

View: https://youtu.be/YRdQfOuAy2o

 

[Dr G]

Also, thanks to the folks in this thread I have got myself a cheap bluetooth tuner with a bold visible VDU to clip on to my bell as I play. From a players perspective this is a good thing I think.

I respectfully disagree. If you are watching the tuner for each note, then you are correcting the note after you initiate it. You need to learn the horn's intonation tendencies to anticipate corrections such that you are not constantly chasing pitch.

People that don't invest the time to learn each instrument they play are more prone to either chasing pitch or playing out of tune. It's what separates the doublers from the dabblers.

 

[mizmar]

Stumbled across this video

By weird coincidence:
This evening I was having a bit of a practice and noticed something was off down around low E and D... Took a break, looked down and saw the pad stopping the C key cap opening too wide had fallen off.
Luckily in Scandinavia one doesn't wear shoes indoors, so I found the felt quite quickly.

And that'll be why an important tool for tuning the sax is a handy tube of super glue.
Also useful for stopping your fingers lifting off the key touches 🙁

 

[LostCircuits]

By weird coincidence:
This evening I was having a bit of a practice and noticed something was off down around low E and D... Took a break, looked down and saw the pad stopping the C key cap opening too wide had fallen off.
Luckily in Scandinavia one doesn't wear shoes indoors, so I found the felt quite quickly.

And that'll be why an important tool for tuning the sax is a handy tube of super glue.
Also useful for stopping your fingers lifting off the key touches 🙁

I heard reindeer snot is superior!

 

[Targa]

By weird coincidence:
This evening I was having a bit of a practice and noticed something was off down around low E and D... Took a break, looked down and saw the pad stopping the C key cap opening too wide had fallen off.
Luckily in Scandinavia one doesn't wear shoes indoors, so I found the felt quite quickly.

And that'll be why an important tool for tuning the sax is a handy tube of super glue.
Also useful for stopping your fingers lifting off the key touches 🙁

You'd find a missing spring even quicker.

 

[Saxodental]

Don’t use a Tuner until you have been playing for about 20 minutes to room temperature and all the sax metal is warm ..then a concert B or Bb . then use the octave key without adjusting your embouchure ..There is a growing group of players advocating advising to tune slightly sharp as you will always naturally blow a fraction flat anyway with a bigger sound but in tune ..whatever works then get a pen and make a mark on the Cork

 

[Pete Thomas]

There is a growing group of players advocating advising to tune slightly sharp

I thought this is more to encourage you to adopt a more relaxed embouchure or else to cover the possibility/probability that other notes will be naturally out of tune (whether ET or just) and that flattening a note is easier than sharpening it.

 

[Saxodental]

Bigger Wider Sound and Relaxed Embouchure all go together really