Intonation How to tune a sax?

[ZeroZero]

Some King Super 20 players (very professional) had problems with middle D, Eb, E. The played flat. So they often played these tones with the palm keys instead of ordinary fingering. The C-soprano I had the middle C was out of tune. The former owner of the C-soprano told me help the C with one of the side keys (I don't remember which). Nothing I noticed and cared about.

Are you talking also about tenor players? I have an Eastman. I don't play soprano.

 

[ZeroZero]

When we are talking about bad intonation most of us are searching for the reasons caused by the equipment. The players are also a part when we are talking about bad intonation. Intonation is to get the right/good pitch (tone height), right/good intervals (tonträff) or to try to give the sax a good timbre.

I am a returner after 20 years on keys, so I am noticing these things more. My new second S20 is identical to the last but is currently playing very different - tech hopsital pending...

 

[Pete Effamy]

Like @Pete Thomas I don’t tune up and haven’t for years. I know where my mouthpiece goes on the neck cork and largely, conditions never change - unless I find myself doing an outdoor festival gig and it’s pretty cold, or adversely hot.

 

[mizmar]

End correction

As an aside, nice example of end correction in action (4m14s)

View: https://youtu.be/45XeZOfuc9c?t=4m14s

 

[Pete Effamy]

As an aside, nice example of end correction in action (4m14s)

View: https://youtu.be/45XeZOfuc9c?t=4m14s

Yep, the later part about throat etc is by far the greater part of glissando, not the pulling (some push the other way) of the fingers off the tone holes.
In fact, you can pretty much achieve the same result whilst fingering a chromatic scale.

 

[mizmar]

In fact, you can pretty much achieve the same result whilst fingering a chromatic scale

I guess you'd have to on a fully keyed instrument - a lot of "voicing" work?!
Although "earspasm" can't - as he demonstrates at the end of the video...

 

[Ghr9204]

I have the same opinion as @Pete Thomas . I rarely tune. I have instinctively learned to play all of my instruments in tune. The worst of the bunch is a Venus Eb sopranino clarinet I bought a decade ago, when these instruments were on clearance by Musical Wheel, a reputable Ebay seller in southern California.

I bought this ebonite beginner horn for under $100 US. It is definitely fun to play, and I have even packed it in one of my hard bags on my 2001 Kawasaki ZG1200 Voyager XII tourer. In a motel room using their TV's sound system connected to my netbook with Hal Leonard and Jamey Abersold jazz play along tracks.

We always have initial tuning at the beginning of community band practise. We tune to A-440. Sometimes the conductor retunes the band in the middle of practise. Due to changes in temperature and humidity (we are at 4,300 ft. elevation (1,311 m.), I readjust the mouthpiece on my own to put me back in "playing comfort zone". The sax's tuning will change as it warms up, so I automatically adjust accordingly.

Getting back to @ZeroZero 's sax intonation problems, when he has @Stephen Howard work on it, he can mention to Stephen the particular notes that have intonation problems, which will allow him to take into mind and see what he can do to correct the situation.

Not saying that this is the situation, but sometimes on a used horn, say a different thickness replacement pad was used, affecting tuning in that area. Bumper corks get compressed or are missing changing pad heights, etc.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I guess you'd have to on a fully keyed instrument - a lot of "voicing" work?!
Although "earspasm" can't - as he demonstrates at the end of the video...

I didn’t watch much..

 

[PiccoloPirate]

As long as the Clarinet has been added, I received a Selmer HS*, to try on that old two ring SAS Clarinet in C.
Read that an HS**, got a four ring Albert, in C, to play in a navigable way.
First, just put it on the B12 for a test, then sanded the cork, to fit the 50mm barrel of the two ring. Unlike the M30 Lyre mods, to get in tune, the HS* was great.
Different overall lengths.
Smaller bore measured in the HS* shank, with a Starrett telescoping gauge.
Will post the measurements of the old
C Clarinet, in that thread.
Big difference in tip curves.
Glissando up the Clarinet, is not just fingers.

 

[LostCircuits]

So reducing the volume in te closed chimneys reduces the virtual cone?

Yes, that's a different way of saying it. I found out when I restored / rebuilt a Borgani curved sop, which had very deep seats and which was hopelessly out of tune. First I thought "this can't be" but then I tried several times to see if I could replicate the effect and once I paid attention, it became more and more obvious. I am even thinking that similar observations may have contributed to the introduction of rolled tone holes. After all, the old makers had to rely on their ears to a much greater extent than at least the average modern manufacturer.

 

[Woodpad]

Yes, that's a different way of saying it. I found out when I restored / rebuilt a Borgani curved sop, which had very deep seats and which was hopelessly out of tune. First I thought "this can't be" but then I tried several times to see if I could replicate the effect and once I paid attention, it became more and more obvious. I am even thinking that similar observations may have contributed to the introduction of rolled tone holes. After all, the old makers had to rely on their ears to a much greater extent than at least the average modern manufacturer.

funny and dangerous.

Probably you could squeese out a still higher note by using a light touch on the left hand and gorrilla grip on the right hand.
I can't do that with my own pads as they have only a thin layer of compressible silicone. I just don't want to stimulate Gorrilla grip as it does so much damage to the horn.

The other danger is that it may revive the parabolic discussion and we already live in intresting times.

 

[ZeroZero]

Stumbled across this video below, which relates. Also, thanks to the folks in this thread I have got myself a cheap bluetooth tuner with a bold visible VDU to clip on to my bell as I play. From a players perspective this is a good thing I think.
Here's the video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gi3nd1bOe8

 

[thomsax]

Are you talking also about tenor players? I have an Eastman. I don't play soprano.

I am a returner after 20 years on keys, so I am noticing these things more. My new second S20 is identical to the last but is currently playing very different - tech hopsital pending...

The players I refere to used thier S20 live and recording sessions. None of them are with us anymore but one guy, Steve Douglas (Wrecking Crew, Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, Phil Spector ...), talked and demonstrated on his video "Rock & Roll Saxophone" how his sax played some tones and what he did to make it sing better. They were top players and the first call for lots of producers. I have owned and play three S20 tenor. A Silver Sonic c 1952 fully pearl, standard S20 from ca 1964 and a late Super 20 (model KG 2416). When it came to bad or lack of intonation I think it was me that was the problem.

I'm sure your sax is going to be a good player.

Changes were made on saxophones to meet the new demands. To sell records became a bigger business than to arrange than preform live. It was expensive to be in the studio back then. The allround saxesclike MKVI and later Yamaha 61 and 62 became the right saxes for many profesionall saxophone players. To be the first call and to deliver on first take was important. To deal with intonation problems in the studios ..... ?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Changes were made on saxophones to meet the new demands. To sell records became a bigger business than to arrange than preform live. It was expensive to be in the studio back then. The allround saxesclike MKVI and later Yamaha 61 and 62 became the right saxes for many profesionall saxophone players. To be the first call and to deliver on first take was important. To deal with intonation problems in the studios ..... ?

If a player had gotten the call to be in the studio you won’t find them having intonation problems - they will know their horns well, no matter what they play on.

I think that players, especially classical players, choose Yanigisawa en masse was / is because of its even scale tonally. Perhaps the search for this naturally gave good, workable intonation too - or vice versa.

Jazz / Pop players are quite happy with the erroneous notes that shout or scream as it’s more “vocal” in quality perhaps. It can certainly be quite difficult to create these “shouty” tones on some modern instruments that fight against you.

Most of the players that we revere will have chosen their particular setup for ease of playing (for them) and also for what they can get out of it, without having to try too hard or distort their normal embouchure etc. same goes for guitarists, bass players, all instruments.

 

[jazzdoh]

I have got myself a cheap bluetooth tuner with a bold visible VDU to clip on to my bell as I play. From a players perspective this is a good thing I think.

I'm not sure it is, as others have said use your tuner to find the sweet spot position on the cork for the mouthpiece to sit and then use your ears to adjust your embouchure with individual notes.

 

[mizmar]

thanks to the folks in this thread .... bold visible VDU to clip on to my bell

Gosh, VDU. It's been a while since I heard someone use that term!

Anyway, leaving aside that no one really recommend staring at a tuner while playing a couple of words of caution:

the angle of the MP in the mouth and posture can have Impact on your playing so getting something clipped to the bell into the eye line might have adverse affects.
Personality, i have a solid, tall music stand for anything I might want to look at while playing so I can stand and hold the sax as I want.
Also, re: one of the other threads and end corrections; about half the sound comes out the tone hole and half the bell - and they might be a little different.

 

[thomsax]

If a player had gotten the call to be in the studio you won’t find them having intonation problems - they will know their horns well, no matter what they play on.

" ... and then I got a call from the producer and he asked me if I could come and play tenor on some tracks. I asked him why, you already have great players that's been playing? We need you and your sax to make it more dirty!" Timbre is also a part of intonation?

I think that players, especially classical players, choose Yanigisawa en masse was / is because of its even scale tonally. Perhaps the search for this naturally gave good, workable intonation too - or vice versa.

Have you ever seen a King Super 20 or a "The Martin" in a classical saxophone quartet? Some saxes are good in Rock & Roll, electric blues, R&B ..... others are fine in classical muisc. My Yangisaxwa T880 and The Martin Tenor were playing in the same style. Both have even scales (intonation) but the Yani was harder to play loud or with more vol

 

[turf3]

Once again, y'all are mixing up different subjects.

1) How to set the average tuning of the saxophone/mouthpiece/reed/embouchure/human body you've got, so that it matches acceptably with the average tuning of the group you're playing with today in the environment (temp, humidity) you're in. You select a note that's average for your horn (I recommend lower G) and slide the mouthpiece back and forth till it matches whatever tuning standard you like, then play.

2) How to make each note of the horn's range play acceptably in tune, given that many notes contain some inherent compromises. You map out where the notes are (this bit is actually optional) and then you practice, a lot, with INTENTION and ATTENTION (I recommend lots of long tones outdoors, pppp to ffff and back again over the full range of the horn) until the micro-corrections that are normal to all wind instruments become second nature. (I will point out that using a full proper airstream makes every horn play better in tune.)

3) How to develop your own approach to the horn and build up the relevant muscles and mental capabilities, so that your playing pitch is stable from day to day. You do the same things as #2. It's part of the same process. Until you have a stable embouchure, voicing, and airstream, you're chasing something that's everchanging. This is why little bitty children use big fat pencils and notebook paper with wide lines - they haven't yet developed the fine motor control in their hands to manage a golf pencil and write in script on narrow-lined paper.

4) How to assess and possibly correct mechanical mis-adjustments - you can't do this till you have a personal stable pitch characteristic; THEN you can go after wonky notes and see if there are any mechanical adjustments to be had.

A couple notes on this - because I see over and over people posting about a horn they just got and have never played and a couple notes seem "out of tune" - most of the complaints about "plays out of tune, must take to shop" would go away with the application of a large dose of that sovereign remedy for things musical - PRACTICE. LIke I said, until you know how to play the instrument, and you've got considerable experience on your particular instrument, "out of tune" is likely NOT to be the fault of the horn.

A very common fault is people playing older instruments with modern tiny-chamber mouthpieces. This makes the horn play overall flat, so they pull the MP out till it's practically falling off the horn. Then the bell notes seem sharp (because pulling out affects those notes less, proportionally), the palm notes flat. If they open up the palm keys to get those closer in tune, now those notes get "wild" in pitch and are easy to play out of tune. Screwing up the scale this way also can create interesting pitch anomalies. My Conn baritone had a wicked sharp middle E and F that went away when I used a more moderate mouthpiece with an inch shorter sounding length. Don't misunderstand me; it's not necessary to go on a years-long hunt for the unobtanium mouthpiece to get these old horns in tune. You just need to consider that a Berg 0 chamber is less likely to satisfy you than, say, a Link or Meyer.

Another issue is that older instruments may not feel quite as "slotted" in intonation as modern ones. I don't know what acoustic design changes are responsible for this. But if you don't have a stable embochure, voicing, and pitch sense, those instruments are likely to be all over the place and then you'll claim things like "those old horns are all out of tune". A story along these lines - a friend of mine sold me an old Martin alto. Now this guy is a very fine alto player, but for 10+ years he'd been playing 100% of the time on a modern horn. He tells me "this Martin has a really nice sound, but the tuning's pretty wild up top, keep an eye on it." Well, I picked the thing up and played it - perfect intonation, top to bottom, not a thing to worry about. Why? Not because I'm a better player overall, I"m not; but because I have spent all my alto playing time since 1978 on an old Conn, so I am accustomed to needing to steer the horn more constantly in between the lane lines.

Quite frankly, I think that the number of saxophones made since 1910 from companies of any reputation whatsoever, that are inherently "out of tune" is vanishingly small. It's always easy to blame the tools, but the real solution resides in the woodshed.

 

[Pete Thomas]

From a players perspective this is a good thing I think.

I'm not sure it is,

Nor me and I think many people might disagree. What would you do if your tuner tells you one thing, but your ears tell you another? Or you are so much concentrating on the needle or LEDs that your ears take a backseat in the process?

 

[Pete Effamy]

" ... and then I got a call from the producer and he asked me if I could come and play tenor on some tracks. I asked him why, you already have great players that's been playing? We need you and your sax to make it more dirty!" Timbre is also a part of intonation?

Have you ever seen a King Super 20 or a "The Martin" in a classical saxophone quartet? Some saxes are good in Rock & Roll, electric blues, R&B ..... others are fine in classical muisc. My Yangisaxwa T880 and The Martin Tenor were playing in the same style. Both have even scales (intonation) but the Yani was harder to play loud or with more vol

Timbre isn’t part of intonation / tuning.

Like you, I’m not a big fan of Yani’s with the music that I play.