Playing the saxophone How do you justify jazz?

[Pete Thomas]

I think you actually have to wear a blindfold while you walk round those empty rooms….

Just like you may want to wear heavy duty ear defenders while listening to 4’33”.

O specially if the performance is amplified.

 

[mrblackbat]

Odd that this absolutely seminal jazz work is very rarely called on jazz jam sessions. Did it not enter the jazz canon along with Blue Bossa?

Pursuance gets called a fair bit. But there are plenty of seminal jazz pieces that don’t get called at jam sessions. Clifford Brown’s Daahoud (needs everyone to know the arrangement of the head inside out), Ornette Coleman’s Lonely Woman, deceptively simple…. Except it’s not. Freedom Jazz Dance, Spain (acoustic guitarists not included….), most Wayne Shorter tunes other than Footprints….

 

[Targa]

Maybe what happened in the 60s (should have) stayed in the 60s. 😉

God knows I’ve tried but life keeps getting in the way.

 

[turf3]

Pursuance gets called a fair bit. But there are plenty of seminal jazz pieces that don’t get called at jam sessions. Clifford Brown’s Daahoud (needs everyone to know the arrangement of the head inside out), Ornette Coleman’s Lonely Woman, deceptively simple…. Except it’s not. Freedom Jazz Dance, Spain (acoustic guitarists not included….), most Wayne Shorter tunes other than Footprints….

How 'Bout

"I'll be a Friend with Pleasure"
"Poor Butterfly"
"Floating down that old Green River"
"Bill Bailey"
and the like?

Why does everyone seem to think that jazz really got started about 1958, after a brief development period 1945-1958? Why does everyone seem to think the founding father of jazz is Charlie Parker?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Why does everyone seem to think the founding father of jazz is Charlie Parker?

I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure most people (if they are actually aware of jazz) probably think it started way before that. Or else maybe they just have no idea when it started.

I always assumed it was around the very early years of twentieth century but with earlier influences of ragtime and blues applied to existing genres including popular song forms and even hymns.

But I think since the academicisation of jazz performance the earlier forms may have been a bit neglected

And it’s sad we have so little recorded examples of the origins.

 

[Targa]

How 'Bout

"I'll be a Friend with Pleasure"
"Poor Butterfly"
"Floating down that old Green River"
"Bill Bailey"
and the like?

Why does everyone seem to think that jazz really got started about 1958, after a brief development period 1945-1958? Why does everyone seem to think the founding father of jazz is Charlie Parker?

Doesn’t everyone think the founding father was Al Jolson?

 

[Grumps]

But at least nobody is claiming Coltrane to be a great vocalist.

Thanks for that. I had always assumed he hired the chanters. There was only one? Well, it's been a while... since I needed to revisit things I never liked. Can we agree then. He shouldn't sing... and shouldn't play soprano.

 

[turf3]

Because of examples like the ones I gave, or in the end, someone takes the pee. Art shouldn’t be a free pass to do anything - otherwise we get into those silly pseudo philosophical debates where art is everything / anything.

As for John Cage 4’33”, he has been responsible for many terrible student skits .. in fact, it was his intention to show through this piece that anything constitutes music (the noises outside of the performance space and within / coughing / breathing).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzodB0Sp6ZI


Dig the John Cage solo!

Missy Raines on bass!

Don't underestimate just how well educated even hillbillies can be.

 

[turf3]

My jazz begins with the era of Charlie Parker (Bird). Forgive the categorical nature.

So what do you call this?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03yN3b3ObF4

 

[Pete Effamy]

How 'Bout

"I'll be a Friend with Pleasure"
"Poor Butterfly"
"Floating down that old Green River"
"Bill Bailey"
and the like?

Why does everyone seem to think that jazz really got started about 1958, after a brief development period 1945-1958? Why does everyone seem to think the founding father of jazz is Charlie Parker?

Poor Butterfly is a lovely tune. I think there’s a bit of a split, over here anyway, in the people that you could call Poor B with and the post Bop guys.
Definitely a stigma attached to the older stuff. Odd really, because plenty of people have taken similarly “old” songs and dressed them in their “modern “ clothes.

 

[mrblackbat]

Poor Butterfly is a lovely tune. I think there’s a bit of a split, over here anyway, in the people that you could call Poor B with and the post Bop guys.
Definitely a stigma attached to the older stuff. Odd really, because plenty of people have taken similarly “old” songs and dressed them in their “modern “ clothes.

The straw boater brigade in the UK actually stems more from the resurgence of trad jazz in the late 1950s and self 1960s. I don’t listen to it enough to understand the nuances, but a friend of mine did a paper on why it should actually be considered stylistically a separate form than the 20s grad jazz of say New Orleans. I’ll try get hold of a summary of it….

As to why I don’t play it…. Well I just don’t really like it, it sounds corny and pretty straight to me - especially when played by white guys from the time. My controversial opinion is that trad jazz really stemmed from an appropriation by white people and they kinda didn’t get what made jazz good. I’d rather go further back into the blues and spirituals for inspiration. I’m sure someone more well versed in the genre will correct me of course!

One other thing: the older you get, the recording quality really starts to suffer, and I struggle to get past that. I make more of an effort for some of the early Kansas style big bands as I care for the music a bit more, and often the players can be heard later in their career. Likewise with early bebop; but at the same time I’ll be skipping that scratchy bowed bass solo on All The Things You Are with Dizzy….

 

[Pete Effamy]

I was brought up on Revivalist Trad - Ball, Barber and Bilk, and The Dutch Swing College Band - a major influence on my early jazz life. Played with a few of those musicians too, which was quite an honour.

Not always totally authentic - the occasional electric gtr creeping in for a Blues influence rather than banjo.

There are some terrific tunes from that era though, and harmonically can trip you up if you’re not familiar with them. I like the “arranged” style that instruments have their place / job.

Leeds College of Music had one or two champions of the older stuff - John Brown and Dickie Hawden. I played in John Brown’s Bodies - nice arrangements by John frequently heard on Radio 2 in the ‘80’s. I also played in The Stompers, an old-time band run by Mike Cox, a lovely tenor player.

Other than this, pre-bebop had little mention (or post-bop!).

Ultimately things are skewed by whomever teaches and their personal preferences. Little mention of the guys out there at the time - Brecker, Sanborn, Garbarek etc.

 

[mrblackbat]

Yeah I'm not saying that the music is "bad" or anything like that, but it just doesn't interest me. Rhythm is a big part of that - trad jazz, to me, doesn't swing; especially when a banjo is present. Compare it to second line New Orleans which swings like crazy, and it's just a different thing altogether.

But I totally agree that musical interest, teaching and exposure is massively skewed by who you know, who you're exposed to and so on. Nobody in my family listened to jazz, so I had to go out and find it, in a pre-internet age. So talking to people, asking who they listened to, getting catalogues of jazz records etc. I latched onto Sonny Rollins pretty quickly (and actually some of the harder stuff from the 60s ironically, not my cup of tea really, his solo on Summertime is..... an acquired taste that I never acquired). And then that led into other people from there. Alongside that, a few teachers who were very much more into the likes of Jarrett (American quartet era) and the British/European ECM side led to an interest in folks like Kenny Wheeler, Dave Holland etc. Though a great sax teacher I had who despised Garbarek seems to have passed that on....

 

[Vlad]

But I totally agree that musical interest, teaching and exposure is massively skewed by who you know, who you're exposed to and so on. Nobody in my family listened to jazz

This absolutely, as a kid I was exposed to the stuff my mum played which was an even mix of 'classical' ie much orchestral stuff and piano music, Chopin Beethoven etc, plus lots of Cole Porter and the like via Frank Sinatra & Nelson Riddle and the whole 'American songbook' type schtick, my interest in Jazz in the broadest sense would spring from the latter, I remember a Jazz record shop in the back end of Shaftesbury Ave somewhere that was a good place to find interesting stuff. ( conveniently close to Bill Lewington's which was always worth ogling the instruments !)

 

[rhysonsax]

This absolutely, as a kid I was exposed to the stuff my mum played which was an even mix of 'classical' ie much orchestral stuff and piano music, Chopin Beethoven etc, plus lots of Cole Porter and the like via Frank Sinatra & Nelson Riddle and the whole 'American songbook' type schtick, my interest in Jazz in the broadest sense would spring from the latter, I remember a Jazz record shop in the back end of Shaftesbury Ave somewhere that was a good place to find interesting stuff. ( conveniently close to Bill Lewington's which was always worth ogling the instruments !)

Ray's Jazz - I spent many a happy hour there. I think it still exists inside Foyle's Bookshop on the Charing Cross Road.

Rhys

 

[JayeNM]

Yes. Whitewashed Wall. Got his / her MO. Very high on the richness of the white too.

OK, probably NOT that one.....

 

[Dr G]

So what do you call this?

Too long.

 

[JayeNM]

Not a painted wall. Or a few strewn cardboard boxes. I’d like to see some professional pride and discernment.

I’m intrigued by stuff like this being defended. Is it along the lines of:

“I disagree with what you say but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it” - forgive the paraphrasing.

It’s Emperors New Clothes.

Or are some saying that this stuff is just not understood and if it was then it might be liked a bit ?

We come back to the music conundrum then:

They’d like it if they understood it.

On those notes, I loved Tge Rite of Spring the minute I heard it. No clue about understanding it. I have understood it now for a few decades and still love it.

Didn’t much like Parker or Coltrane for many a year. I do now. Don’t know if that is thru understanding it or not, but both ways obviously worked for me.

So basically craft is important to you, that's fair. And I agree, there does need to be something of the artist's hand in the piece.

Back in art school , 70's-80's...there was a concept/title/phrase in regular use along the lines of "artist as switching mechanism".
What this mean was...art/music/etc can be something composed or created by an artist based upon inspiration or perhaps a long simmering/developing intent or idea that over time comes to fruition....or more pedestrian-ly...HAS to be produced because you were contracted to produce it.

But then it was posited that there also exists a role in the artist/creator that the banal/normal/regular things often overlooked, may also have value as something to be considered...sometimes out of its usual context...or sometimes within its usual context.
So, artst as switching mechanism - do not necessarily 'create' a painting, sculpture, etc from scratch....but rather take the banal out of its usual context, present it in a new context...could it actually be viewed as an aesthetic object, or even polemically ?
Thus imbuing it with a new 'value' beyond the typical mundane.

This is quite real, and is a source which has been mined for a few generations now by visual artists, particularly. It's not BS, it's not a scam. It CAN be BS and a scam, sometimes. But we cannot throw out the baby with the bath water....

 

[JayeNM]

I don’t think so, because instruments are being played - most likely well. So, there’s something of a skill set on show. Unlike “Whitewashed Wall” which was also displayed in all its glory at the Guggenheim along with the beautiful cardboard boxes.

OK, so aspects of your reply... revealed your double standard.

As a musician you understand that instruments are being played, "most likely well" (that becomes arguable sometimes, IMHO, but for the sake of now, I will go with it). You can make that judgment because you are a musician.

You are not an installation artist, however, nor a sculptor or painter or choreographer. To my knowledge you have no degree in art history (?) So when you become a spectator of any of those, you have lost your tether to your specialty.

So the basis of your judgment on those things becomes more subjective - IOW, you do not really have as much a foundation in the context of those creative pursuits as you do music. You MAY like CERTAIN forms of art - figurative sculpture, Impressionist painting, etc..you may even be a 'regular' gallery-goer with a list of favorite artists....
....but occasionally when confronted with something less familiar or more reliant upon interpretation, our default falls more to "I find this pleasing" or "this is unpleasing" based on the way it initially makes us feel. Or in your instance "this piece was done with absolutely no professional pride nor discernment". Which is fine. you can feel that way.
But it isn't the endgame in determining whether a piece has value or not. In other words, it may NOT have been conceived or excecuted with no professional pride nor discernment.

One's initial impression may not synonymous with a conclusion that "this is rubbish, absolutely no artistic intent or effort went into this at all". Because your lens is potentially narrower than the field from where the piece was created/conceived.
Because in order to make that judgment, we may need to delve into a few more things first. The artist's larger ouvre, the themes they seem to return to, and in the case of some artists, even their own life experiences.

Sometimes, that context reveals that what may seem random and pointless initially, is not so.

Just like what to a casual music listener may seem like someone literally assaulting their instrument, and YOU...making horrible things come out of it..."what kind of musician is this making these atonal noises and sloppy phrases, where's the professionalism in that ?"...in fact, once explained and contextualized...isn't so at all.
It doesn't mean after being presented with or familiarizing oneself with those things you will "like" it. But there's a fair chance you may look at it differently.

 

[Dr G]

This conversation brings back 'round the question of "Why does art/jazz have to be justified?"

If either has to be explained in order for the viewer/listener to enjoy it, then there exist two different audiences for each - one that enjoys the innate qualities and one that revels in the nuance/esoteric. "I like that" vs "I understand that".